The Secure Start® Podcast

#25 How supporting adults creates the safety children need to learn, belong, and heal, with Megan Corcoran

• Colby Pearce • Season 1 • Episode 25

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What if the most powerful lever for child healing sits with the adults who show up every day? I sat down with trauma-informed educator and Wagtail Institute founder Megan Corcoran to unpack how belonging transforms classrooms—and why staff wellbeing isn’t a “nice to have,” it’s the backbone of consistent care. Drawing on years in alternative education and leadership, Megan lays out a clear path: support adults, stabilise culture, and simple, universal practices will start doing heavy lifting for learning and behaviour.

We explore the everyday moves that make a school feel safe: morning check-ins, predictable routines, regulating as a team, and a tone of unconditional positive regard. Megan and I also dig into secondary traumatic stress—what it looks like, how leaders can name it without stigma, and why peer support and supervision prevent professional dangerousness. You’ll hear how communities of practice create accountability and reduce isolation, and why modelling “this was hard—here’s what I’m doing about it” changes a whole culture more than any poster or policy.

At the centre I outline a practical compass: AURA—Accessible, Understanding, Responsive, Attuned. Be accessible by noticing early. Be understanding by naming the experience. Be responsive by offering support proactively. Be attuned by matching affect and guiding back to calm. These aren’t therapy techniques; they’re human habits that, done consistently, rebuild trust. We connect this to better learning: regulated nervous systems encode knowledge, and students who feel they belong can take risks, persist, and grow.

If you care about trauma-informed education, teacher retention, and real-world strategies that fit into busy days, this conversation will give you a framework you can use tomorrow and a north star you can build a school around. If it resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review so more educators and leaders can find it.

Who is Megan?

Megan Corcoran is the founder of Wagtail Institute, where she works alongside schools, youth services, and complex settings to strengthen wellbeing and build trauma-informed communities. With nearly twenty years’ experience teaching and leading in alternative education, Megan brings both professional expertise and lived understanding to her work.

Her vision is simple but powerful: that every child has a safe and magical childhood, supported by adults who believe in their future. At Wagtail Institute, Megan partners with those adults—educators, carers, and practitioners—helping them to feel supported, heal, and thrive, so they can continue doing this important work.

Disclaimer:

Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of pdcast owner, Colby Pearce


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Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Megan:

Belonging could be the key to healing childhood trauma. This is challenging work. There are some risks to it. So let's have some open conversations about it. And I think a real crucial part is the leaders actually just modelling. Hey, this was hard. Here's what I'm doing about it as well. So it's like, you know, I felt this, but I actually have some strategies in my toolkit as well. I think there's no lonelier position sometimes than being a leader. Yeah, and that peer support becomes incredibly important when we find ourselves in a position like that. Was when an old colleague reached out to me who was also leading, but in a different setting, who reached out to me and just said, can we start grabbing coffee together and unpacking what's going on? Um, and it was just such an incredibly helpful space talking about education in a way that supports that notion of I'm a teacher and I'm here to support human beings and they're going to come in with their complexity. So I just think anyone who's working with young people has the opportunity to provide therapeutic moments without being a therapist. The curriculum's not the centre, the young people are the centre of the work that we're doing. And lots of trauma-informed practice lines up really well with some of our tier one setup for our classroom. We don't know what experiences these young people have had over the weekend or that morning before they come into our classroom. But we know what experiences we can give them before they leave for the day.

Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start Podcast. I'm Colby Pierce, and joining me for this episode is a fellow podcaster and trauma-informed well-being consultant. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people that my guest and I come from. For me, it's the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains. For my guest, it is the Warajari and Bunerong people of the Kurlum Nation. And I'd just like to acknowledge the continuing connection the living Aboriginal people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Megan Corcoran. Megan is the founder of Wagtail Institute, and she works alongside schools, youth services, and complex settings to strengthen well-being and build trauma-informed communities. With nearly 20 years' experience teaching and leading in alternative education, Megan brings both professional expertise and lived understanding of her work. Her vision is simple but powerful. That every child has a safe and magical childhood, supported by adults who believe in their future. At Wagtail Institute, Megan partners with those adults, educators, carers, and practitioners, helping them to feel supported, heal, and thrive so that they continue doing this important work. Welcome, Megan.

Megan:

Thank you so much, Colby, and thank you for such a lovely introduction as well.

Colby:

You're welcome. Um, I'm really pleased to have you on. And um I'm wondering if we could just begin if you just can uh tell us a little bit about yourself, how you um at the Wagtail Institute, perhaps your podcast as well, because we're fellow podcasters, and uh and how you gain how you came to start all that, found all that.

Megan:

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I spent quite a lot of my career working in schools. Um, so yeah, I was a good old graduate teacher quite a while ago, um, working at the Berry Street School here um in Melbourne in the southeastern suburbs. And back then when I started, um the Berry Street School was actually set up just for young people in out-of-home care. Um, so you had to actually be in out-of-home care to be a student at the school. So that was quite a complex start to teaching, that's for sure. Um but I thought I had one of the best jobs in the world. I absolutely loved working in education and loved teaching these young people. Um, so I worked at a couple of different alternative settings as a teacher across the Melbourne area and then eventually uh moved my way into school leadership, which was never on my radar. It was never something I was thinking deeply about. Um, but it came from a bit of a values place, I guess, where um, you know, I was really passionate about supporting the young people and I loved my time in the classroom, but it was a bit of a chance, I guess, just to have a bit of a further impact and support other teachers to do the same and have those wins with the young people. Um, and so I went back to Berry Street actually to start my leadership um journey there. So I kind of came full circle and came back to the same campus and went into leadership at a pretty pivotal point for the campus too. There was a lot going on, a lot of change. They'd had a pretty rough year the previous year, so we were sort of re-establishing some safety in the campus. Um, yeah, and then I worked, yeah, worked there for a little while, and then I was an assistant principal and then worked at a really large alternative setting in leadership as well. So we had like the next school I was at, we had like 360 students enrolled, um, and all of them experiencing some sort of disadvantage and quite a few of them in out-of-home care. And um, yeah, so I got really passionate, I guess, about supporting the practitioners and the professionals in these spaces. Um, I was leading through the COVID era and really saw just how much we really needed to wrap around the adults who were supporting these young people. Um, so I got really passionate about it and I studied my masters in um in well-being science and positive psychology as well. And in that I actually explored um belonging. So I was looking at belonging being, I guess, a pivotal thing for young people that experience trauma. So I sort of was exploring the fact that belonging could be the key to healing childhood trauma. And then I got really curious because I'm like, the only way we can do that and establish places where young people belong is by having adults who are consistent in those spaces. Like we feel a sense of belonging when we know the people in that space. Um, and I was looking at all the turnover happening and all the people that were really struggling to stay in schools and youth settings and out-of-home care spaces. Um, so Wagtail really was dreamed up in that way, I guess, at looking at well, what can we do to support these adults? There's kind of a bit of a two-pronged approach with what we do at Wagtail Institute. Um, one is enhanced trauma-informed practice so that they actually know what to do with the young people. Um, but the second is enhancing well-being for the adults as well. So we need to know how to look after ourselves, how to look after each other, and to make sure our services and systems are actually helping the adults in that space as well, so that they feel like they can stay and they can do this work with the young people. Um, so that's really how it all began. And I'm a few years into it now and working alongside lots of amazing settings and organizations and loving every step of the way. Um, and the Wagtails podcast came came pretty early on in the journey as well. So I think I just realized that some of the best learning I ever have as a professional is when I get to sit down with people and pick their brains and just dive into really good conversations. And I thought, well, what a great way to actually share that learning with a wider platform. So just doing what you're doing, really, Colby, is inviting people that I'd love to have a chat to, and then just having that opportunity and that privilege to share that with a wider audience and learn together through the questions we get to ask on these podcasts.

Colby:

And that that's uh you bring up a great point, I think, is that it's it is actually a great way for us to learn. Well, at least, yeah, I think that's what you're suggesting, and I feel that way too. It's such our people that we interview are often such great resources, not only to our listeners, but but also also to ourselves. And uh yeah, it's like like doing it's like the best professional development you ever do in a in a way. Um, although some people may actually call it that. Um, and I I think I think your journey is an interesting one uh in the sense that what you've you've recognised is the need, if we're going to deliver trauma-informed practice well to children and young people, we the adults need to be um supported uh as well as the children. And in actual fact, we go so far as to say that um what we want the adults to be doing with the children, we want them to experience themselves so that it kind of um transmits through them, yeah.

Megan:

Yeah, makes it so much more real too. It's I feel like with trauma-informed practice, we sort of um as a field, it started off very much as an applied practice to other people. So it was sort of like we've got some traumatized young people in front of us, we need to apply this work to them. Um, but we are like developing as a field now to really understand it more as a way of being and a lens to see the world through and a way of showing up and just making sure we're also preventing harm with anyone we're interacting with, not just the traumatized young people.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. And and I think you've also alluded to the fact that it is it it is difficult. Well, it can be difficult and confronting work. It's not good for the children and young people that for people to come and go uh in the high volume. So I'm just wondering, what are your thoughts about the kind of the scope um of well-being challenges, uh vicarious trauma for the adults that that work in this space and what do we do about that?

Megan:

Yeah, great question. I feel like it's an area where we're just starting to scratch the surface. Um, like if I rewind back to when I started in the field, um, there wasn't a lot of permission to share how we were tracking. Like we obviously cared about each other's well-being, we're really supportive. But if you were to put up your hand and say, I'm really struggling here, there might have been a sense that like she's maybe not going to make it. She maybe shouldn't be here. Like back then, that's sort of how we approached it. And so even for me as a graduate teacher, I was sort of learning how to just suppress some of that challenge and um believe that I'd get like the language wasn't this, but really I was learning to desensitize my reactions to what was going on around me. Um, but it comes up at some point, you know, and it's something to be aware of. So I feel like we're really just starting to scratch the surface, and there's starting to be, you know, a lot more research happening around secondary traumatic stress, um, you know, and looking at what's actually happening, what does that look like, what does that feel like? And there is starting to be some really good research around what we can actually do about it as well. So I feel like just stage one really is having permission to name that and be okay that it is actually a risk factor in our field. And if we're more comfortable in naming it and talking about it and sharing that challenge, um, we're actually starting at that awareness level, which is where we need to begin. Like if we go into it blindly and just think, you know, you've got to be pretty tough to do this work, well, we're not really helping the young people to have those consistent adults because we need to acknowledge this is challenging work. There are some risks to it. So let's have some open conversations about it. Let's be aware of how it may impact us. Let's track some of those emotions and those sensations that we might get throughout the workday when we are confronted with some of the challenges. Um, and like that's just really step one is just I know it's I know it exists and I'm aware of it. Um but there's so much more we can be doing as well around just peer support, like making sure we've got really good wraparound with each other at work. Um, yeah, and just like sort of implementing the trauma-informed principles at the adult level as well. So making sure we're actually working in trauma-informed ways. So far, if there's any leaders listening, it's like, well, what do we do for the young people when we know they're stressed and we know they're impacted by trauma? We can translate that absolutely up to the adult level and work in ways where we acknowledge there is stress. We acknowledge that there may be some behaviors from the colleagues that we're supporting that might be in fight or flight mode, but it just looks a little bit different at the adult level as well. Just making sure we're putting in supports where people feel really safe, where we've got really trusting relationships, um, you know, all of those like really good practices, and that we are actually like working on regulation as well. So just knowing I am stressed, going to do something to regulate, then I'm gonna go back in and support the young people again. Very long-winded answer there.

Colby:

Well, no, uh no, I think it it's a good answer. And it I found myself thinking as you were talking about what you're what the reaction might be when you go into a complex environment like a school or or um you know residential uh care provider for for children. Um you go in and say, Don't worry, don't worry about what's hap what happened to the kids. Tell me what's happening for you in the first instance. I I don't know if you if they're the words that you use, but I I wonder about the re some of the reactions that you may uh get to the adults, I guess expecting to be told what to do with the kids and perhaps not so much expecting to have to talk about their own experience of the work.

Megan:

Yeah, absolutely. And a key part of that, I think, is um the leaders modeling that as well, because we don't want to be the new person who comes in and has to be vulnerable in front of our peers straight away, but we need to see it's actually part of the culture and part of the fabric of the way of working in this space as well. Um, and so the permission sort of comes when we see others doing that too. And I think a real crucial part is the leaders actually just modeling, hey, this was hard. Here's what I'm doing about it as well. So it's like, you know, I felt this, but I actually have some strategies in my toolkit as well. And that is something I'm saying from I think neglecting to do that when I was in leadership as well. I'll never forget a day where I had um, you know, there was a bit of a some sort of crisis and we had a debrief. And afterwards, one of the teachers came to me and she said, How are you okay with everything that happens here? Like you never look like you're impacted by it. And I was thinking, well, I'm doing a huge disservice to the team if I'm not actually expressing how I feel and modeling what I'm doing about it as well. Um, because they don't need a robotic leader. Um, like, you know, well, I had great strategies in my toolkit, and they don't need a leader breaking down every day something happens, but they need to hear that there is permission to talk about it and that we all feel the impact in some way. Um, no matter how experienced we are, you know, we're we're supporting young people who it's their life and something big may happen. And it actually upsets us when we see a young person in crisis, and it's okay to be upset by it, but it's also really good to have some strategies to nurture ourselves and to look after ourselves after moments like that.

Colby:

How can it not be upsetting? I I think it was something that uh dawned on me very early in my career that um the way to desensitization in a sense, if it if it if it stops bothering you, then you need to stop doing the work, really. Um but I think you but so if you kind of practice with heart, you need you need to be able to not lock all those experiences away, but have uh opportunities to discuss them, to be held in mind by a leader at who walks the walk and talks the talk. I think I got that right. Yeah, but you you you need uh you need we talk we've talked in previous podcasts on on the Secure Start Podcast about the role of leaders in containment. And maybe we'll talk a bit more about containment in a bit, but um you uh you've really I think hit the nail on the head in relation to leadership, the the the important role that leadership play. And um again that that's a theme that's come through um uh many times, and it includes um the importance of leaders having their own person or uh to to go and talk to about um they about their own experience of the work. Yeah. I wonder if that is that kind of something that you get yours get involved in as well in terms of just being that sounding board and that person who holds space for leaders.

Megan:

Yeah, it's a really interesting area. I think there's no lonelier position sometimes than being a leader.

Colby:

Yes.

Megan:

Yeah, and that peer support becomes incredibly important when we find ourselves in a position like that. Um, and something I found really helpful, um, which, you know, a couple of years into my leadership journey was when an old colleague reached out to me who was also leading, but in a different setting, who reached out to me and just said, can we start grabbing coffee together and unpacking what's going on? Um and it was just such an incredibly helpful space because it was like, here's that peer support that we all need where we have similar experiences, we can validate each other, um, and we don't feel so alone in the journey. And then from that, we actually developed a community of practice. So we now host, and it's now five, six years into that community of practice, um, where it's a space for leaders to just come together four times a year, meet each other, learn from each other, hold space, you know, connect, share details, stay in touch if they want to as well. Um, so this work becomes incredibly important, I think, is just that idea that we need to just have someone to validate and listen to us. Um, and if we're feeling isolated or we're feeling like we're in a space where, you know, maybe we don't have that peer-level support, supervision is incredibly helpful. Like if we can get good supervision set up, cannot stress enough how important that is.

Colby:

Yeah, one of my one of my past guests, Lynn Payton, she's a leadership consultant in Northern Ireland, she she made the comment that leaders leaders can't debrief, probably butchering it a little bit, but the the general point she was making is that is that because of their role in an organization, the leader can't uh have this mentoring relationship or this debriefing relationship with someone who is junior to them in the organisation, you know, because ultimately that you that person's gonna be um self-censoring what they see and observe and acknowledge in the leader. Um, and so yeah, I'm really uh interested to hear about this community that of leaders that um that you set up and I and again um very much consistent um with with with what's been talked about more in the I guess the social care and child protection organizations specifically uh on this podcast.

Megan:

Well, yeah, the the um the community of practice we have is um for leaders in alternative education. Um so it's for any leader who middle leader, you know, executive leader, working in a school with young people impacted by trauma. Um so that's the key um, I guess, thing that they have in common. And yeah, over the years it's it's growing, it it takes different shape. It originally was going to be all in person um around Melbourne, so it was kind of an invitation for anyone in Melbourne. Um then, you know, good old COVID teaches you to do things in different ways. So we ended up in those lockdown years doing it online, and that meant people from regional Victoria started joining, we had people from Tasmania join. We had someone move to the Northern Territory during that time and stay in it. So now we do a hybrid thing where we go, all right, there's need for in-person, and we still host those, and it that the whole community is welcome, but obviously it's hard. Um, but we will do three online a year just to make sure that that that can still be available to everyone.

Colby:

Yeah, that's fantastic. And that's that's one of the the great things that has emerged out of those COVID years is that we were we we we had to trust in technology and and the worth of still being able to connect over this. Yeah, yeah. When you talk about it, it reminds me in in the residential child care space, therapeutic residential child care space in the UK, they have a uh an entity called the Community of Communities. Now the the community of communities uh these are therapeutic communities, um and they do a um they do a lot of things uh about which I'm not uh an expert. Um I've just had some conversations. But but one of the one of the good things, I guess, that arises out of that is not just the opportunity to um support each other, but also there's a there's a there's almost like an accountability um aspect of that experience that everyone keeps everyone else kind of on the on the right track, so to speak, in in those circumstances. Um because that they are vulnerable children and young people that we're talking about, and uh the old concept of professional dangerousness arises where where people are you know experiencing their own vicarious trauma and then they can it can has a possibility of leading people into pref professional dangerousness. Um so I think a a community of communities as with the community of leaders that you're talking about is actually a really ethical uh space. Um, yeah.

Megan:

And it's an important point you raise as well, because if you think about it, the cultures of these workplaces for so long have been about that idea that it is hard work, but you need to just be tough and come and do it. And what we're kind of talking about here is breaking that mold. And that takes time and that takes a bit of courage as well to put up our hand and say, hey, I'm actually finding this really challenging, or I've had a I've had a reaction to what happened yesterday. Um, whereas, you know, in the past it's been a bit of a like, you know, something happened, like, you know, you're tough, you can handle it, come back in the next day, we're all okay. And we're just trying to shake it off and pretend we're all okay. But as you said, it's that level of accountability and just keeping an eye on each other and making sure we are okay and that there is permission to go, you know what, it's okay to have support, it's okay to raise a challenge, um, and you don't need to like we can break down that culture together of that tough come in and be tough and just you know shake it off in this industry.

Colby:

You've got to be pretty tough in this area. Um, the other the benefit, one of the benefits that we that it would be good if there's not already to have really good stats that demonstrate this, um, because policymakers just love numbers. Um But I would imagine that uh staff retention um would be a a really uh um achievable outcome when you when you start from a place of supporting staff. It sounds counterintuitive, doesn't it? Really? You've got vulnerable children, children in need, and the first thing you do is you is your is your work with the staff.

Megan:

I know it sounds like it's counterintuitive, but it's oh not this is the thing. Like, how can we show up and do this work as well as we can if we're not coming from a place of strength and feeling well and having good processes in place? Um, but this is the hard thing of my work, Colby, I think a lot of the time is I feel like I'm trying to sell it to people and be like, you know, this is why you need this. Um and it feels a little bit crazy sometimes where you know I'll meet with people and they'll go, we don't actually have funding for that. We need to put the funding into the kids. I'm thinking, well, if you're having a revolving door of staff walking out, you know, that funding is just, yeah, you're being yeah, you're spending it on recruiting and hiring and you know, starting from scratch over and over.

Colby:

So yeah, it it probably and and you perhaps I guess do it, it it needs there to be some clear definable outcomes that you're looking for with with um intervening at the staff level first or even at the leadership level first. I've got I've got a I've got a theory about this. Well, I it's I mean all of my theories are based on experience, including the experience of others, myself, and things that I've read. So I wonder if anything is truly my theory. But one of the things that I'm aware of from the literature, um relevant literature uh on thinking is that we are um we're problem solvers. We're really good at identifying problems and and then trying to we're very good at identifying the problems, but we're you know, and then trying to come up with a solution. Now the solution may not always be um successful, but but we do we do notice problems. We've adapted in that way. Um and we're not so good at noticing the things that go well correspondingly. We focus a lot on problems and fixing problems, and we don't focus so in any kind of endeavor where you're trying to achieve an outcome, people need to know what that outcome looks like, or else they won't see it. You know, I'll just see I'll just see the problems that persist.

Megan:

Um, so I think it's I think to add to add to that as well, if you look at the nature of this work when we support trauma-impacted young people, um, it's a little bit crisis-driven, if we're honest, you know, and so we become very reactive. And so we look for a problem, we solve that problem in the moment, and then our like it's almost like we're addicted to that fight or flight adrenaline as an industry where it's like problem, problem, problem, you know, reacting, solving, and we're not so good, if we're honest, at slowing down and looking at strategic work and looking at the long-term impact of some, you know, some implementation of different things. Like, I know we are definitely in a better place than we used to be, and there's lots of good work happening in this space. Um, but we can get a little bit addicted to the reactivity, and our decision making is sometimes pretty quick. Um, yeah, and I've seen that from a lot of leaders in this space as well, where you know, they'll be like, all right, we need to implement this change and we're doing it tomorrow. And it's like, how about we slow down and look at you know what outcome we're trying to do and how we're going to measure that?

Colby:

Yeah, and ultimately trauma traumatised organizations uh are not good at um responding therapeutically to traumatised children. Yeah. But yeah, I can see what you mean about it's it's almost like it's a sales, a sales job to to, I mean, leadership, leadership is the I guess in schools is the target, primary target. Um because leaders, yeah, set the tone of the of the school, as you say. Um have you worked out what works with the cell job that you're prepared to share?

Megan:

To be honest, I'm not I'm definitely not a sales um motivated person when it comes to business, but I think ultimately um it's just like just being out in the field and just talking to the people and sharing and having case studies, and like that's that's my approach, really, is like if I can share things that are helpful to people, whether it's an article, a blog, a podcast, uh a little idea that's worked in a school, um, that's my approach. So it's not very sales for sales focused. Um, but you know, if someone finds something helpful, then they're more likely to think about well, how can we do this on a bigger scale?

Colby:

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think yeah, being a resource to school leadership um is a great place to start. Yeah.

Megan:

Yeah, yeah.

Colby:

Which is a nice we can I can segue a little bit away from that into what what do you think is the role of schools in helping children recover from early adversity, family trauma?

Megan:

It's such a good question. And I find that this is a really interesting part of the work. Um, and I'm gonna start by saying I feel like a lot of empathy for teachers at the moment. Um, there's so much different discourse around what a school does and what the role of a teacher is. And I think we haven't started from the right place around what it what is the work, you know. When we look at being a teacher and coming into a classroom and supporting a group of young people and often a very large group of young people at one given time, we're we're supporting human beings, and those human beings are coming in with all of their complexities. Um, and I think initially what we should have been doing is actually thinking about talking about education in a way that supports that notion of I'm a teacher and I'm here to support human beings and they're gonna come in with their complexity. Um, so yes, teachers want to teach their curriculum and they they absolutely want to execute those amazing lesson plans, and that's what they've signed up for. Um, but I just think we're doing a disservice in talking about education as solely that when we look at the complexity of human beings that come into classrooms. So I want to say that teachers do not have to be therapists, and it's not about adding therapy training to a teacher's workload. Absolutely not. Um, but I think it's just about learning ways that we can work in a trauma informed way while we deliver that education. And I just wish that that was part of um. You know, pre-service teacher degrees and training is just a bit more knowledge around trauma-informed practice. Um, and then that way we would come in understanding why children might be behaving in particular ways in our classroom. So for some young people, school might be the safest place. It might be the place where they come in and they actually feel seen and heard and they feel loved by the teachers at the school. And so teachers can be doing life-changing work without even being 100% aware of that notion as well. So I just think anyone who's working with young people has the opportunity to provide therapeutic moments without being a therapist. And so I just think if we all can put that hat on and just remember, young people are at the center of the work that we're doing. The curriculum's not the center, the young people are the center of the work that we're doing. Um, yeah, and I just feel for teachers, I just really wish, you know, we spoke about it in ways where they understand that complexity before they sign up.

Colby:

It's it's kind of like in my in my uh field, the psychology of individual differences. So it's that tension between um this is what we know about everyone, and this is what we know. So, you know, we could apply these general theorems or you know, uh this general knowledge to everyone. Um, but perhaps perhaps the the best of those statements is that everyone's an individual. We need to tailor and adapt and and yeah, I mean it's it's what I think what you're what you're getting at, um, or what I'm hearing you're getting at is that um early on it's important to not only think about what you want to deliver, but just to think about the role. Think about the the role that you put you're playing uh in the in the lives of the of the children and think about their experiences and how best to um adapt for each child. And uh I feel sorry for teachers too, because I could just imagine if I came in as a psychologist into a school and said, Well, you've got to adapt for each individual child, they would say we have 30 children in our classroom and half of them are experiencing this and other yeah, and so you know, and um that's the thing as well.

Megan:

Like I feel like we don't have to get overly complex about it. Like when we look at some trauma-informed practices, we can actually look at what's called in education, like multi-tiered systems of support. And when we at tier one, that's universally what we want to do for the entire class. So like we don't have to make adjustments in tier one. Tier one's what we provide for everyone. And lots of trauma-informed practice lines up really well with some of our tier one setup for our classroom. So things like having a circle time in the morning and having a chance to actually engage with everyone and see how they're feeling, do a pulse check, regulation strategies for the entire class, just using unconditional positive regard in how we, you know, respond to behaviors that are coming up, clear expectations, predictable routines, like lots of these things will actually just support all of the young people in our class without overcomplicating it and going 50% of my students need this and 50% need that. Like if we can just get some of those basics right, we're gonna see some change happen in classrooms as well.

Colby:

How did what's the response you get to that?

Megan:

Well, to be honest, this is actually where I think I do get a lot of positive response from teachers because they are incredibly overwhelmed when they think about I need to do trauma-informed practice and curriculum and this and that. Whereas when I get a chance to actually map it with them and go, let's map these tier one things that you can do for your entire class, like it's almost like a sigh of relief of going, oh my gosh, I'm actually so relieved to hear there's some things I can do just in my daily practice without getting too individualized and overwhelmed.

Colby:

Do you think it matters who delivers that message? Um, so I'll give you two examples. You delivering that message, or me as a clinical psychologist with 30 years experience working with these children, developing that uh delivering that message. Do you think it makes a difference?

Megan:

It can for sure. I think because I've walked the classroom experience that sometimes it lands because of that. Um, but I I'm just imagining the power of us delivering that message together, Colby. That would that would be so impactful.

Colby:

I dare say, um, I always say when I'm when I'm working at school, and just just just to let you know that I've written a program for schools. I have I have rolled it out here. It is rolled out, it's not rolled out widely here. In fact, um when I applied as part of this SA government's um, they had a scheme to deliver trauma-informed uh practice across schools. Um I'm I'm I'm happy to put my hand up and say that I I didn't win the tender. I wasn't a successful tenderer um for that, which um I think there's a bit of a story in relation to that. But net nevertheless, I have still worked with schools um a lot over the past 30 years, um, less so these days because of that initiative. But but I have a program that is rolled out in schools in Ireland.

Megan:

Amazing!

Colby:

Yeah, it's like but you know, an artist is never known in their hometown.

Megan:

I find it's quite funny. Australia's funny like this, actually. Like I I agree, like there's sometimes where I've seen some um some colleagues who've been really successful in the UK, yeah, um, but they're Australian-based, and then they, you know, there's certain networks they try and get on in Australia, and it's like nut, but the UK said yes. And I think, yeah, there's just different processes and approaches, I think, to to yeah, how we go about it in Australia. We're very very red tape over here.

Colby:

I yeah, and also though, I think I just think that whatever's exotic, you you know, we're drawn to what's exotic. So I I I can't I I feel conflicted when I hear that someone is coming from overseas and they're rolling out something in my local jurisdiction that I could do, I'm conflicted because I'd like to be doing it in my own local jurisdiction. One, but I also know if I went to their jurisdiction, they would probably find me more attractive in a sense, in an exotic, you know, from overseas sense than than that person that's come to my jurisdiction. And certainly I find that in Ireland and the UK, and especially in Ireland, um, you know, some of the most validating work I've done has been the overseas work because yeah, I think there's that that bit that goes through it. Anyway, I think I think we digress. What I was going to say is also like I think it's really important to just ignore. I think part of what's helpful for someone like me to engage uh teaching staff in a school is to first acknowledge the limitations of my experience. So I'll I'll often say, look, I I'm not a teacher, I didn't train as a teacher, I have never, it's not true that I've never ever taught a class in a school, because I have. I've been invited into my my son's school to in their psychology, year 11 psychology, but for a little bit. But basically, I've never taught I've never taught in a school, I've never worked in a school. That's also not quite true. But anyway, my point is I've I'm not, I haven't lived and breathed what you have.

Megan:

Yeah, but you you bring up extra knowledge as well, though, that like that's the thing. So we can learn from so many different people from so many different angles as well. Um, and I'm sure there'll be teachers sitting in your training that will like that light bulb moments will be taken. And as long as like part of the message or just one practice is taken, then you've made a big difference as well.

Colby:

Yeah, so well, thank you for saying that. What I what I do say is that I know the children very well.

Megan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Colby:

Because I've been working with them therapeutically for 30 years, yeah. That's my primary work, and um yeah, and but I still, you know, it's still I guess we all would get the people that we meaningfully engage, and then there's the ones that um yeah, that it it would be harder to achieve that.

Megan:

Yeah. Well, I'm curious, Colby. What's your main message to teachers? If you can like I'm I'm now firing questions back to you, but I'm just curious what's this is my podcast. But what's your main message if you can sum it up like briefly to teachers, you know?

Colby:

I thank you, because um I love to talk on my own podcast. Um it's interesting. I what you said about um you're always you're already doing things that will help, it really resonates with me, and really I'm a I often say I'm a simple man with a simple message. My I think that um change changing your approach. So if I'm talking to foster parents or kinship carers or or residential childcare workers or social workers, you know, any of those audiences that I might speak to, teachers, it's very hard for them to change their habitual approaches to the work. And in fact, their habitual approaches to relationship and relational connection and how we how people approach their roles. And in action, there's a there's a statistical phenomenon called regression to the mean, and I sometimes talk about it in this term, which is which basically means that people you can get some people to mobilize a bit of extra effort to change a behavior. The most likely outcome, though, in any behaviour change process is that people will end up back to where they started slowly, they'll make a change and then they'll slowly tail back to where they started. And so the message of that for me has always been well, you've got to work with where people start. What do they already know and do that helps? So my message uh can be summed up in the acron several acronyms, but the one that people seem to like the most at the moment is aura, where I'm not talking about aura in a well, it is a metaphysical sense, but not the new age sense. That an aura is is def is defined as the felt quality, uh, the person's experience, one person's experience of another person or a place, how it how it feels to them. And it it's also really I I actually came, sorry, now I'm on the I feel like I'm on the Wagtail podcast, but um I came up with this. I was laying in bed one morning and I was just thinking about the concepts that I routinely think about in this space, and and and it dawned on me that you could put them under this aura acronym. Accessible, understanding, responsive, and attuned. Um paying attention to children, teachers do that. Yeah. They know and part of being accessible is noticing or anticipating that a child may be having difficulty and getting in before the child does anything to um to secure attention or get out of what they're doing. Uh, understanding means just you know acknowledging the child's experience in our words, in our actions, and in our expressed emotions, our actions, responsiveness, it can be um uh turning our mind to what a child needs from us at this time and just and and offering it proactively. With children and young people who are recovering from a tough start to life, proactive is much better than reactive if because because they feel often feel like they have to control and regulate adults. Your cut through that is that you do things proactively so that they have a different experience. So it's not you only did that because I did something to make you make it so, rather, it's um oh, you noticed that I needed that from you. And the last one uh the A in aura is attuned, which is about empathic acknowledgement, really. Just you know, not don't try and um present an entirely different uh affective presentation to that of the child. The reality is we all have instinctive empathy, well, just about all of us do. Um and so when if a child's upset, we're likely to be upset. If a child is happy, we're like to be we're likely to be happy. We don't have to suppress our emotions. What we do though is we we show a bit and then we regulate back to a karma space, and children will follow that. So the that that is a very and these are all very natural parts of of um relationship building and caregiving, being accessible, being understanding and not uh responding and being attuned. We all do it. We do it we do it when the kids are younger, especially we do it for babies. Yeah, and then as babies grow up, they go we say use your words, yeah, and we start to we we we start to be less proactive and more reactive, and it's part of just socializing our children in the ways of the world. But traumatized children, hate using that term, but children have experienced trauma in the home, their uh their their uh development is start often start way back. Or they've got this kind of Frankenstein development in a sense where there's all these holes in it. You know, they they've never that for example, they've never had um consistently enough, often enough, the experience of being in the mind of an adult. You know, that they've never had um the experience that adults come when needed, that you can tolerate being separated from them because you know that they exist and that they will come when needed. There's all sorts of ways in which early family trauma and neglect is part of that, impact development, and so they end up with this kind of weird hybrid level development that I think just start at the beginning basics, which is I think consistent with what you're saying. Start at the basics, yeah, and progress and see how you go from there. And I I think you get along, you go a long way, easier for the staff, and the kids are less reactive to it because it's all it children who go all children have experienced some level of care, they haven't been raised by dogs or whatever. Well, you know, that maybe um dogs make I don't dogs don't make good parents for children, they make good parents for dogs, but and good companions, but not necessarily parents. Yeah, that's right. So I I mean, if you start at the basics, they're not unfamiliar to children.

Megan:

Yeah, yeah.

Colby:

If they're unfamiliar, if someone tell comes in and says you've got to do this suite of really, you know, newfangled, sophisticated things, one teachers or f teachers, foster parents, kinship care, anyone will find it hard to implement and sustain over time. And the problem with it not sustaining over time is inconsistency. Inconsistency just rolls the kids up.

Megan:

Yeah.

Colby:

So if you start doing something, then you give it up, they'll they they don't know what to expect of you. The other thing is that the kids don't like change, they're reactive to it. So the teachers go, that this idiot Colby Pierce, he told me to do this, and then we, you know, and then we had to evacuate the classroom as you know when chairs started flying and whatever, it's just too much. It's too much. So dose is important. Okay. So maybe we should release this podcast under both Wagtail and Secure Start.

Megan:

Brilliant answer though. And I like a lot of what you were sharing, like I often say to teachers is um we don't know what experiences these young people have had over the weekend or that morning before they come into our classroom. But we know what experiences we can give them before they leave for the day. And if we do that every single day, so if we're just having a couple of positive interactions, we're saying their name, we're greeting them in the morning, where you know, we're pretty consistent in the way we're supporting them when they're having a challenge. We're actually helping to send those messages to them that adults can be safe. Because here's an adult doing it five days a week, week after week. And over the course of a year, you've actually sent some pretty strong messages to that young person that's going to change their perspective and their experience of adults.

Colby:

And I think, yes, uh, look, there's there's so much going through my mind, and I don't want to go off onto a long, uh, a long answer, but um I recently had um Ben Perks on the podcast. Now he's the global head of policy and advocacy and child protection at UNICEF. And he he's written uh his book is fantastic. It's just a cracking read. I love it. And but one of the things he he grew up in children, he was relinquished by his parent or parents and grew up in children's homes in pretty kind of the it sound without going into a lot of detail, it sounds like you know, some of the worst experiences of being in children's homes that young people can have. And he's got a you know, he's got a a massive global role now in UNICEF. Yeah, he's he's had a spectacular career from kind of like children's home, young offender, delinquent kind of uh thing to to here. And anyway, the the the punchline in this story is it started with a teacher. And and and I I think it star it it does start with one adult who just stops and um thinks thinks about this child, holds space for them, keeps them in mind, responds to them proactively. And now and if you can get a whole school focused on this is how we're going to be with any child we interact with in the school, simple basic things, acknowledging, empathic acknowledgement of their experience, uh responding to their needs proactively before they have to ask. That that that has great power and and you need it because often parental in child protection out of home care, too often um the relationship with birth family is is fra which is fractured is not repaired.

Megan:

Yeah.

Colby:

So you need lots of good relational experience for young people to compensate.

Megan:

Yeah, I heard someone refer to it actually as needing a like a patchwork quilt where we're all adding a patch to the quilt. And that that's what a young person who's had a fractured home life and has lost that sense of the birth family. It's a patchwork quilt approach where they need multiple people adding to it.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. You've said a little bit about what you recommend. I've I've said a lot, too much. Some people will say, we come on and listen to this podcast, Colby, to listen to your guests, not to you. Uh, I know so I can already anticipate one particular person who uh uh regularly I regularly speak to about this podcast, who's gonna say, Colby, won't you just, you know, not but you did ask the question.

Megan:

I did ask the question.

Colby:

Yeah. Do you is there I wonder if there's anything else that you think it would be important to say in the as part of this conversation about how we make schools places of healing as well as learning?

Megan:

Yeah, it's such an interesting one. I feel like the education system likes to do a bit of a pendulum kind of swing where we focus on one thing and then something else. Um, and I feel like about 10-15 years ago, we're getting really good at going well-being's really important, and now we're pendulum swimming back the other way and going, let's do rote learning again, and science of learning is the main focus. And it's like they both coexist, they both have to be there. Um, so I think just giving teachers a chance to hold both, and the priorities don't have to keep swinging from one to the other. But the most important thing I think I will say is we need to change the discourse around teacher well-being to start, and here we go again about it. But ultimately, it's hard work, like teachers are, you know, it's a challenging job. And here we are talking about trauma-impacted young people coming into their classrooms as well. And so I think we actually need to be proactive around thinking about teacher well-being. And there was some research that came out, I think it was in May, from um Adam Fraser and a couple of other people at Deacon around secondary traumatic stress being really high in educators. Um, and so, you know, like we need to acknowledge that and say this is real, this is part of what teachers are facing. So let's plan for that. Let's not just assume that that's not going to happen to the teachers in our school. The stats are showing it's happening to the teachers in your school. Um, so let's like acknowledge that that's a real thing and plan for that. And let's actually look at how the industry could have more effective debriefing, more effective, you know, peer support circles, like we've spoken about. Um, you know, supervision would be a dream for educators. And but I don't want to plant seeds that can't be watered or grown in any way. But I know principals, some principals have access to that, and some alternative schools have been implementing supervision. So just making sure we're actually putting supports in place and then we're training teachers effectively to actually navigate trauma-informed practice in their classrooms, they're going to feel a lot better for it. So I think that that's the starting point, really.

Colby:

Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to get across that uh kind of like a primary prevention method uh message, isn't it? Where, you know, so one thing, you know, there's a number of things that came up in in what you were saying, but one thing is that if if let's say if you want to focus on learning outcomes, you need to acknowledge that children learn best when their central nervous system is regulated and they learn best from people that they feel connect relational connection to. Correct. And so some children some children resist relational connection, and uh so we need to find ways to connect with them. And and I also so that's you know, with learning outcomes, I also want just wonder about the the cost to society of teacher burnout. And even if not teacher burnout, see again I come back to Ben Perks and his book, and he t he tells lots of stories about parents and and children, some of which are factual and others are um uh fictional, but but making a point. But you one of the kind of things that gives you chills when you think about it is you've got a teacher who's burnt out at work but is a parent themselves. Like that's it, there's social costs in all of these things, and they don't necessarily uh fall nice and neatly into all the buckets that that that you know that the government has, and this is the education bucket, and but if you if you burn out teachers or you know, or burn out child protection workers notwithstanding the their their best uh endeavors, you you create a scenario where they're not at their best in all walks of their life.

Megan:

Yeah, yeah. And this is what we ignore sometimes too, is just like how trauma is actually we're very interconnected. And like the way our systems and our society is structured and set up is actually, you know, perpetrating trauma into our society as well. And we have parents who are quite isolated while they're trying to parent because our structure of society is all this independence and you know, managing the full-time job and then managing the household at the end of the day. And you know, people are actually, yeah, quite isolated a lot of the time too.

Colby:

Yeah. Only we can change the world.

Megan:

I know, but we can bit by bit, we can change, you know, maybe just the experience for one child at a time, and that's changing their world at least.

Colby:

Well, this is um well, a point that I would make further to that is that if you can change that child's world, you can you you have uh there's a strong possibility that you'll change the the the life and experiences of a life partner, of their children, and of their grandchildren. So that it by intervening there's that there's a social capital. I had an earlier guest who was very interested in social capital, uh, Graham Carrige, um, another good podcast to listen to. But he, yeah, the what came out for me out of that conversation was just that that ongo, you know, that ongoing benefit to society. And then on the flip side is that if you don't if we don't do anything about this. I was only thinking about it this morning, actually, that with child protection systems is that each child who comes in to child and and and grows up in in child protection system in a child protection system and out of home care system. How many child and and if nothing therapeutic, if they're if their life course is not um changed and you we've got that intra intra intergenerational transmission, that it's a big problem. Then child protection will never shrink as a problem because they'll have uh multiple children, likely they've all gonna have similar histories, and it and it just it's like a snowball, it just gets bigger and bigger. And I do, I personally do think that school it's been very difficult for me over the years at times to to get the message across, but school is is after the home environment is is is the place where children get the biggest dose of relational connection, not just with teachers but with other kids as well. The the original notion of the takes a village included the children in it. We've kind of uh truncated a bit to say a village of adults, but it was a village in the true sense with with children as well, and that's got implications, I think, for you talked about belonging earlier. Um, it's got implications in terms of how we manage children's behaviour, you know, what are the consequences and how do we foster belonging in a system that excludes children for misbehaviour?

Megan:

Yep, absolutely. That's exactly why I dived into that area in my masters, really. Wanted to prove a bit of a point that, yeah, just that sense of belonging can be a life changer. And it's the same when we look at out-of-home care as well, when young people are moved from home to home, house to house, when we have what would call placement breakdown. I hate the word placement as well. Um, but just the impact of that, if we've got children moving from home to home and then school to school or excluded from school altogether, well, the impacts are actually, yeah, really, really awful.

Colby:

Some would say they're the worst, they're among the worst things we can do to children. Placement or, you know, homesetting breakdowns, family, yeah, over and over and over. Yeah. And and you could equally, not equally, but you could similarly apply that to school.

Megan:

Yeah.

Colby:

I remember um um my father my father was expelled from school. Um many, you know, back he's not alive anymore, but many, many um decades ago, in the atten, for the the teacher threw a chalk duster at him and he threw it back at the teacher and he was expelled. So this is back in the 1950s, late 1950s. Yeah, and that that never left him. That that was like an attachment injury. He he yeah, he ne he was he was always highly sensitive about that.

Megan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and what an awful experience too, and it just really highlights that dangerous power dynamic that was very strong in the 50s, but can still play out today, where the teacher had the power and was okay it was okay for them to throw something at the at the child, um, but then the child does something that we don't like, and it's you know, that power imbalance is huge.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. Um Richard Rollinson, he he ran uh and has continued to be a significant figure in the mulberry bush, the uh therapeutic community in the in the UK.

Megan:

Yep.

Colby:

Um, he says he talks about how the schools help children. helps children to live with themselves and to live with others.

Megan:

I like that line.

Colby:

And yeah, I like it too. And he um and he talks about the power of we. We don't this is not something that we do here. You know what we do is this. This is how we treat other people. We we where whereas so there's that always that sense of in our language of community.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah. And what's okay for young people is okay for adults and what's you know what I mean? Like it's we have these like sort of unfair expectations sometimes of young people that we think the adults are immune to and it's like no in a re in a true community we just have values and we operate by those values. And that's everyone.

Colby:

And although it's a very powerful way to intervene what we want is people to be we we want people to be motivated to can to um follow the the the norms of the of the group rather than to be fearful of of um exclusion from the group. That's always there. That's always a bit of a but you want the predominant thing to be you know I want to I want to stay part of this group. I want to be motivated I'm motivated to be part of this group. Yeah. Yeah. Any final things that you'd like to points you'd like to make about um this discussion or the or the work that you do?

Megan:

Yeah really good question. I think um I mean we've covered so much today but just if there is anyone listening that is doing this work it's I think we've planted a few good seeds that like it is such important and beautiful work um and that you are you know making a difference in young people's lives. So just make sure that you do have those um support systems in place and just thinking about you know the way that we're showing up and how we're looked after in the work as well and just so we can sustain ourselves to do it long term would be the main thing I think. Yeah great terrific well thank you Megan for being on the secure start slash wagon thank you so much Colby honestly it's such a privilege to be invited and honestly yeah sorry for firing questions back you as I said I like to learn from people as well so I was picking your brain I think that I think the most uh uh telling thing was that that you only asked one after my response yeah there were no more well thanks again thank you might speak to another time sounds good

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Colby Pearce

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