The Secure Start® Podcast

#29 From Trauma To Hope, with Dr Hayley Lugassy

• Colby Pearce • Season 1 • Episode 29

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What does it really take to heal after trauma—and how do we help children do the same without causing more harm? I sit down with Dr Haley Lugassy, a senior educational psychologist whose lived journey from teenage trauma and isolation in Spain to rebuilding life and career in England reframes what recovery looks like. Her story is anchored by the power of one good adult, the steady fuel of hope, and the life‑changing mix of compassion and boundaries.

Haley speaks openly about enduring sensitivities like abandonment anxiety, the long work of therapy, and reclaiming body health after years of masking pain. She explains why “say sorry to your kids” is not weakness, and previews her forthcoming book - a hopeful testament to repair, accountability, and growth. 

If you care about student wellbeing, safeguarding, foster care, or parenting through adversity, this conversation offers grounded strategies and a generous dose of hope.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a colleague or friend, and leave a quick review. Your support helps more people find compassionate, practical guidance when they need it most.

Hayley’s Bio:

Dr. Hayley Lugassy is a Senior Educational Psychologist with Keys Group and the founder of Lugassy Learning Solutions, where she focuses on inspirational speaking and sharing her lived experience to support schools and families. Drawing on her professional expertise and her journey of becoming a mum at 15, Hayley is passionate about bringing compassion, boundaries, and trauma-informed practice into education and parenting. Her work opens up honest conversations about healing, hope, and creating environments where children can thrive.

Disclaimer

Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce.

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Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Hayley:

So I started writing an awful lot about my experiences as a way to process what I'd been through. That was the second member of staff from school, I guess, that had really noticed something in me. And it was her support that got me through that year. It was essentially a combination of several people noticing me, supporting me, believing in me. I had a lot of protective factors as a young child. I had quite a lot of strengths that I was able to draw from from those younger years. But I was able to kind of hold on to some of that. And I think that's what helped me to realise that actually this situation that I'm in, this should not be happening. This is not okay. I deserve better. I can do better. I think that you can go on to live a very meaningful and content life where you know the trauma isn't overtaking your day-to-day. But it's always there, it's always something in the background somewhere, and it is very much a case of managing it, supporting authorities and professionals to open up conversations with parents and carers where they can start to feel safe enough to recognise some of their challenges as parents and to take that accountability with that compassion and that kindness. What we tend to see is that the adults really struggle to keep their calm. And that's where the boundaries actually probably aren't boundaries, they become punishments. And one of my biggest um messages is to parents you know, say sorry, we all mess up sometime. Let's have more informal conversations. Yes, absolutely. Say sorry to your children, recognise the mistakes that you made, acknowledge them, take accountability and grow. And that's what I've done, and it's you know it's working okay.

Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I'm Colby Pierce, and joining me this episode is a very special guest with an inspirational story to tell. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that I come to you from, the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Ghana people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Dr. Haley Lugassy. Haley is a senior educational psychologist with Keys Group and the founder of Lugassi Learning Solutions, where she focuses on inspirational speaking and sharing her lived experience to support schools and families. Drawing on her professional expertise and her journey of becoming a mum at 15, Haley is passionate about bringing compassion, boundaries, and trauma-informed practice into education and parenting. Her work opens up honest conversations about healing, hope, and creating environments where children can thrive. Welcome, Haley.

Hayley:

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Colby:

And just so you know, um, I talk to children all day long, so it's a it's a pleasure to talk to uh adults. And um one of the things I do, which will I'll edit out, is that um when I'm speaking to particularly young children, I don't say the, I say the. I'm sorry, as I as uh it'll be edited out, but as I the at the tall end of your bio there, I said five, and then but of course, and then went back and recorded it properly. So uh so as to look like the adult that I am.

Hayley:

I love that that's very authentic of you though.

Colby:

Not not that the well, it's a bit uh uh non what's the opposite of authentic to be.

Hayley:

To take it out, but but using it the first time you said it was very authentic.

Colby:

Oh well, thank you. I I do leave a lot of my faux pas in when I'm recording, but um yeah, maybe actually there's nothing there's nothing wrong, I I think, with uh maintaining a bit of of the uh of our inner child.

Hayley:

I agree, I agree, I think that's really important to connect with our inner childs, yeah.

Colby:

Yeah, I do that all day long. Have a blast with with with the kids that I see. Yeah. So Haley, thanks for coming on. I've been aware of you for a little while now through the story, the parts of your story that you've shared uh online. Um but I really wanted to focus this conversation on really on recovery and thriving as much as um possible, notwithstanding that you do have a story to tell, as I alluded to. But I I thought we could probably just start with if you could just tell me a little or tell tell me, tell us uh a little bit about your story, who what you do, um and how you came to be doing what you're doing these days as an educational psychologist.

Hayley:

Great. Um, how long do we have? This could be a long story. I will summarise the best to the best of my ability. Um, so I think the introduction was great. That really captured um essentially what what I do. So I am in uh an England-based educational psychologist. Um I work for a company called Keys Group four days a week as a senior educational psychologist, working with independent special schools for children that have social, emotional, and mental health needs. Uh, that's where my passion lies, is in supporting children and young people that have experienced or been subjected to traumatic experiences, um, as well as supporting the adults in those children's lives. I think that's where my passion probably lies, is supporting the systems around children and young people to help them thrive. So I do that four days a week. And then outside of that, as you've already mentioned, I'm the founder of Ugasi Learning Solutions, which is my own company where I offer workshops, inspirational talks, and trainings to educational settings and beyond if they would want me, um, on anything related to trauma-informed practice and supporting individuals that have suffered. Um, so that's I guess a snapshot of the work that I do on it on a day-to-day basis. I guess the most interesting part is what's led me to do the work that I do. And I love hearing about people's stories about how how did you become an educational psychologist? Um, I don't know in Australia, but here we're quite a small profession. Um it's it's less than, I'd say probably three, three to four thousand um people. And for me, I was actually drawn to this profession from living in Spain um as a child, where um, so I am English. Um, I lived in England until I was 10 years old. And then my mother had the idea of moving to Spain. I was asked, you know, Hayley, how'd you feel about moving to Spain? And I said, Oh, of course, beach, swimming pool sounds amazing, you know. Um, of course, yeah, who wouldn't want to? Uh so my mum and I packed up and moved over to Spain when I was 10 years old. Um, and whilst living in Spain, that's unfortunately when life became particularly challenging. And it was when I was 14 years old, I'd experienced um something quite traumatic on the Halloween, the night of Halloween, um just before my 14th birthday. Got had involvement from a school psychologist to support me with that. And as I was leaving the room following my last session with her, she kind of said to me, Hayley, I was like, Oh, you know, when you're a teenager and you look back and go, oh, what do you want? Let me go. And she just said to me, One day you would make an excellent psychologist.

Colby:

Really?

Hayley:

And at the time, yeah, yeah. And at the time she saw, why do you think she said that? I do know what if I wish I could find her, I wish I could go and ask that question. What did you see in me? What was it? Were you just being nice? Um, what she did share with me was that she felt that I had very good um kind of listening skills and that I was very reflective. She didn't use that word with me, but kind of remembering some of the conversations we had, um, the way that I was able to think about things and kind of try and put two and two together, make links with things and really try to connect with my inner thoughts and feelings, uh, was something that I potentially found a little bit easier than than other young people, perhaps. And she essentially said to me that with what I had been through, as well as being a foreigner living in Spain, I'd experienced bullying, there'd been lots of other challenges of moving abroad, you know, learning a new language, not having any family. So it wasn't just the traumatic event, I think it was a combination of a big move, a big transition. So she felt that my lived experience would be helpful in the future and to support children and young people. So that's she's one of my biggest inspirations. But as I've already mentioned, at the time, I just looked back and thought, who are you? What are you going on about? You know, shut up. Um, but actually those words stayed with me. And it was around four years later that I decided that I actually did want to take that seriously, and that supporting children and young people was my biggest passion in life, and that I wanted to do what she had done for me. Uh, and that's that's where it all started. So hopefully that gives some insight into where little little Haley in in Spain got inspiration to you know to become a psychologist.

Colby:

It's interesting, it came from uh another psychologist um as well. And uh yeah, I do have quite a lot of the young people I see want to be psychologists when they're older. Um and and some have got very close actually, um, and really just could have gone on to be become registered uh or finished their their training and become registered, but they would they've gone down a um another path but uh related but not the same. But yeah, that that's a wonderful story. Um of such a of belief in your yeah, just noticing something in you that yeah being the word that came to me was introspective when she was um when you were talking about that. Oh yeah, yeah. But you you you you mentioned that um there was uh um a an unfortunate or traumatic incident that happened and gee, not you know, almost we're almost on the anniversary of that or just after. Um I I am aware, and I guess people who know who know of you are aware that that yeah that you had um some significantly bad experiences um after that point. But I guess uh what I was um wondering is what what helped you kind of get to that point you know to realize this aspiration. I think you said only four years later you'd made the decision and then um and then the rest is history, so to speak. So how how did you go from a very dark place from what I know of your history to um to be um starting to be a psychologist?

Hayley:

I'm really glad you've mentioned this because actually I I said it in a way, you know, oh four years later, and that's why I did it. But actually, four four years is a really long time. And when you are 14 years old, you know, from the age of 14 to 18, that's a that's a big chunk of my adolescence. Um, so four years on the grand scheme of things isn't that long, but actually it was a really, really big chunk of my life. So for those four years, um, you know, and until I got to the point of feeling ready to engage um in education again, those four years were extremely dark um to the point where I didn't think that I would survive, I didn't think that I would continue to be living that that's how dark it it became. Um so to go from that to then actually saying, hey, I can do this, I'm I'm going to do this, um, that that was a significant change. And it was, it was a but it was a small, small step journey, I guess, with very baby steps. So, in terms of how I got to that point, um when I was 17 years old, I eventually was able to flee Spain because during those years I was uh essentially stuck and trapped in a very difficult relationship, and all of my family were living back in England. So at the age of 17, I somehow found the strength and way of returning home. Um for me, England was always my home, even though Spain was like a second home as well. And when I came home, I had a little boy um who was two years old at the time. And he was always my biggest inspiration. He was the reason that I continued to live. Um, I truly believe without him I I would not be here today. And when I returned to England, I had absolutely nothing. Um I I turned, you know, I remember getting off the airplane, I had you know my little boy in one arm and one little suitcase in the other. I had to leave everything else in Spain, including some very important paperwork, um, because there was a high risk as I as I was leaving. So I had nothing. So I had no money, uh, an awful lot of trauma, no qualifications because I'd left school at the age of 14. Um, but one thing that I did have was hope. I was really hopeful that that was going to be the right decision. Me returning to England was going to be the right decision. It was absolutely heartbreaking, and there was no day as hard as the day that I left Spain, got on the plane, and came to England. That quite literally tore my heart apart, tore, tore my heart out. Um, but I did have hope that we would have a better future, and I think I really needed to hold on to that hope. So then gradually, whilst you know we became safe and physically, um, we were both safe, we could start to rebuild our lives together, me and my little boy at that time. And that's when I decided to re-engage in education. Um so I approached kind of the local uh council to explore what options I had as a 17-year-old single mum uh with no money and no qualifications. And thanks to the support that we do have available in England, you know, I was I was entitled to benefits, which I was extremely grateful for at the time. Uh, I was also entitled to receive free education, and as part of that, they funded a nursery for my son so that I could go back to school. I could go back to education whilst he was well looked after. So I just want to say out loud, I'm very, very grateful for the support that was here in England that wasn't available to me in Spain. And um from there I returned to education that I did an IT course as the first thing that was available to me, just a level two. Uh then I went to college to do my GCSEs, um, the kind of compulsory um, you know, secondary education here. Um, I didn't do massively well. I didn't know I didn't fail, but I I think I got a D in Mass and then I achieved kind of between A's and C's in in the other four subjects. Um and it was actually during that year that I discovered a passion for writing. Um so I started writing an awful lot about my experiences as a way to process what I'd been through. And my English teacher offered to have a look at some of my writing. Um, this was was I was 17 to 18 at college. And when she read um my writing, she was really inspired and she actually asked to have a one-to-one with me where she really encouraged me to keep writing, to keep sharing my story, and she really believed in me. So that was the second member of staff from school, I guess, that had really noticed something in me. And it was her support that got me through that year because even though I was safe emotionally, you know, physically safe emotionally, I was still really, really um stuck, I would say, um, highly traumatized from my time in Spain. But yeah, so little, little, little bit of support from the teacher was wonderful. I got through that year, and then during that year, I I actually then met my now husband, who is um I'd say one of my biggest inspiration, my my second inspiration after my son and my anchor. Um, my husband, I describe him as saving me, uh saving me and my son, seeing something in us that nobody else saw. And it was actually him who I eventually told that I'd really like to be a psychologist one day. I said it in passing, uh, not believing that it would happen. Um, and then around a year after that, but that we'd kind of got married, things had progressed very quickly. And he just said to me, he said, Haley, you need to do this. You you need to study psychology. Um, I wasn't at the time, I just did my GCSE, still very, you know, I didn't really have a great job, wasn't really earning much money. And he truly believed that I should study psychology. So it was at that point that he said, let's find a way of this to happen. We discovered the open university, which is where you can study remotely or online, um, at a cheaper cost than what a kind of traditional university would be here in England, and they didn't require TCSEs or A levels, and to this day I don't I don't have A levels, which are typically required for university. Uh, so he decided that he would actually fund my first year. So we he paid um for my first year on a monthly basis so that I could start studying. Uh, and then from there I picked up student loans, and then the rest is history in terms of just continue to study. Um so yeah, it was it was a long journey, and even that is a snapshot of what it was like, but it was essentially a combination of several people noticing me, supporting me, believing in me, and really push pushing me to follow that dream because I was one saying, no, I'm never gonna do that, I'm not clever enough. Who would want me? Uh, but there were these two, three people that really felt that I could do well. And if I hadn't have listened to them, I don't think I'd be here today.

Colby:

Yeah. I that's a it's a marvellous story. And I you were you started doing the summary that I was hoping to do. So I noticed, yes, that there were those, there were those those three key people, and there may well have been others as well. And um you described your um husband as as in in terms akin to being like a secure base, and um I'm very interested in secondary attachments and and uh what we and earn security uh after um uh my my other passion, which is attachment in children. But yeah, so you had those those key people. Um you you also like some of it came from within you as well. Like you're clearly you're clearly very capable and you had and um you're able to return to education and complete um the university training in psychology. And um and what was the third one I was going to say? So I'm having a senior moment now. Um and education in i in and of itself is is such a um uh an important way uh to change your life in in in actual fact. And you know, I it's it's sad that a lot of the children and young people I see who could can't be safely cared for at home or couldn't be at some point and are placed in out-of-home care. Education just becomes another it can often enough become another re-traumatizing experience for them, uh particularly um because their behaviour is poorly understood and they often get excluded from education when um and and that only really compounds their their their challenges, whereas what they it would be much better off if they um if we could keep them in education. I say I say to the young people, because the young people often don't can't see the point of education. I say to it, say to them, schools like vegetables. You don't have to like it, but it's still good for you.

Hayley:

I love that. I've not heard that before. I might take that.

Colby:

Everybody is I was gonna get uh stickers made up to put on uh put on uh car bumpers, but um uh I can't turn off my entrepreneurial brain for um I blame my dad. But um you also talked in there about hope. Um it that hope that you had, and I was just wondering where we that hope came from.

Hayley:

That's people have asked me this question before, and I I I genuinely I don't know. I don't know where that hope came from. I I think I think it was hope that that was the only thing left. Um there was nothing else, and it was it was either feel hopeful um and believe that something better is coming, or stay here and die. Um, so there was some there was some sort of fire in my belly that's um that ignited, and that's where that hope came from. I do often reflect on this in terms of how how did I get to that point? You know, I I wish that I could go back and be a fly on the wall as I was experiencing those things because I wish that I could share whatever I did with the world so that we could kind of replicate some of those skills that I demonstrated at such a young age. Uh unfortunately I can't do that, but something I think for me that potentially was helpful is that I had a lot of protective factors as a young child. Um, a lot of my challenges came from the move to Spain. It wasn't that the only challenge, but the most significant trauma was that adolescence. Whereas when I was younger, living in England, I had you know family around me. Um, I always did very well at school. And I think for me, you know, I was I was extremely academic at school, you know, I loved going to school. I was a perfectionist, got, you know, got top grades, had big dreams and ambitions from a very young age to go on to be what I called a boss lady. That was my ambition before I moved to Spain, before I wanted to become a psychologist, I wanted to be a boss lady, you know, one of those strong, independent, powerful women that walked into these fancy offices with pencil skirts and high heels. That that was my dream. And I guess that even though I was struggling emotionally and I was extremely traumatized, I did know deep inside me that I was capable of studying. Uh and that I didn't find studying particularly difficult. Although I'd been out of education, you know, from the age of 14, I had no qualifications. I could read, I could write, I could do that with ease. Um I could understand things, I always had good communication skills. So I had quite a lot of strengths that I was able to draw from from those younger years. And that I suppose kind of enabled me to feel hopeful about my ability to re-engage with education and pursue my dreams. Um, other people might not agree with that, but that's that's how I make the link between those early protective factors and the kind of hope that I then identified later on.

Colby:

Absolutely. I I I think I agree with you that I think that's probably was was very influential. Um that you had already developed a sense of your own worth and competency and adequacy, deservedness. Um, you'd already developed a uh an understanding that people could be relied upon and trusted. Of course, you fell into adverse circumstances, and in those circumstances, those those core beliefs were really challenged, and and others were probably at play, undoubtedly at play. But then you had, and there may have been other instances, but you had the experience with the psychologist of um, you know, someone just someone reminding you to believe in yourself. And um I I just think that no I don't think anyone's circumstances uh are so bad that they can't be um repaired in some way, and nor are is it is anyone's circumstances so good that they can't, you know, really be knocked about a bit. And and um and that that's life is all about where we live predominantly, under the influence of uh positive and hopeful beliefs about ourselves and other people in our world, or quite negative ones. And that really does depend quite a lot on your early experiences as you described, um, and and contemporary circumstances, and and it's a bit of a continuum you can or or spectrum, you can move backwards and forwards a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I agree, and I think you've just go ahead. We're both we're both chatters, I think.

Hayley:

I think we are. I'm I'm containing myself and definitely holding back. Um, but I guess you've just touched on you know something on there again around how yes, I think I had those early belief systems about myself and I recognized my worth. And yes, those were absolutely changed for you know good three years of my adolescence, uh, but I was able to kind of hold on to some of that. And I think that's what helped me to realize that actually this situation that I'm in, this should not be happening. This is not okay. I deserve better, I can do better. Yeah, and I think just something really important for me to say is that I've got two older brothers. Uh, one of them at the time, so they're both much older than me, one of them is eight years older. And whilst I was living in that extremely difficult situation in that abusive relationship for three years, my partner at the time did let me speak with my brother. Um, for some reason, you know, very little contact that I was allowed with the outside world, but speaking with my brother was okay, potentially because he feared him. And my brother called me from New York, where he lived at the time, every single day and reminded me that I am the most amazing person in the world. He always believed in me, he always thought that I'd go on to be a really successful, inspiring person. And that was from when I was born. Um, he just adored me from the second I came out, apparently. So, even during that really difficult time where all of my beliefs around the world were being challenged, I did have this one consistent person, even then, telling me, no, don't listen to that guy. You know, you are you are a star. Um, and I'm again extremely grateful to to have him, you know, at that time because I do feel that I was able to balance out some of that negativity, which was that would be really impactful.

Colby:

Yeah, you I mean, I was thinking about it when you said it earlier, but there's that there's the that era of endeavour that goes under the the heading of the one good adult. And um and um I was thinking to myself, who was the one good adult, you know, through that time? Because the psychologist involvement was was episode was was just contained, I think. Contained to a certain um episode. Um so it turns out it was your brother. Oh, yeah you had that you had he the his ongoing involvement with you, uh someone who understood you, believed in you, and yeah, in in in however form he could be was there for you in those in those times.

Hayley:

Yeah, I think without him, I I think it would have been so much more challenging because I was out of education, there were no teachers looking over me at that point. So the school psychologist involvement had been before I'd started this relationship that was related to a different um incident that happened. So by the time I was in that relationship, I was living with this man. Um I fell pregnant, I had my son, uh, it it was just us. It was the most isolating experience I I can describe. You know, there's no more isolation possible. Um, and the only small bit of contact with the world I was allowed was was that contact with my brother and the occasional, you know, you're allowed out if you've been a good girl. Um so yes, he was that that constant adult, and I hasn't reminded I haven't remembered that. So thank you. You've just brought back some positive memories for me.

Colby:

Well, maybe if he listens to this podcast, he can expect a pretty good Christmas present this year.

Hayley:

Oh gosh, too much pressure.

Colby:

I'm not suggesting you should. I'm not trying to tell you how you should organize your Christmas presents. Yeah. Do you um was there anything but any particular challenges that that you would be um you think would be important to um acknowledge that you that you think you you you're almost a bit proud of yourself, or maybe you are very proud of yourself that you were able to kind of um find a way to overcome those challenges.

Hayley:

There are so many challenges, Colby. There's so many challenges. Um you're referring to challenges in terms of the impact of the trauma and how we've been able to overcome those. Yeah, okay. Um I'm extremely proud of everything that I've achieved, and I don't mean that in a oh look at me, I have a big ego way. I mean that in a I did that. I'm standing today, regardless of title, that you know, that isn't actually important to me. The fact that I'm here and smiling, I have friends, I'm you know, day to day I experience a lot of joy and happiness. Uh, as well as all the other emotions, but generally I have a really nice life, uh, and I'm extremely proud of that. I think, in terms of the most significant challenges following the traumatic experiences, for me, it was that there were two main challenges for me. Um, one of them was around relationship building with others. I had lost all trust in people, even though I knew deep down that people were good and um I was able to interact with people. And I think part of the problem was that I masked very well. Um I was very, almost like I am today, very talkative and very smiley. But relationship building on a deeper level was extremely challenging because I couldn't trust people. I'd been hurt not only by my partner, but so many other people within where you know the place where we lived in Spain was extremely disadvantaged. So I was surrounded by people who were all suffering and we all hurt each other. Um, so then when you then move to a new area to start a new life, you you don't want to trust anyone. So for me, making friends was extremely difficult. Um, I didn't know how to associate with people, I felt misunderstood, I felt different, like there was something wrong. I was truly believed at the time that something was wrong with me, and I was on a desperate mission to find out what that wrong thing was. Um, so friendships weren't important, it was important to find out what was wrong with me so I could find the fix. I never found it really. Um, so that that was one thing that I had to really work on, and it's been a very gradual process. And you know, we're talking, I I left Spain when I was 18, so we're talking 13 years now, and I would say that only the last three to four years I feel like I've been able to form meaningful relationships with others for on a friendship point, you know, put from a friendship perspective. Um, and it's now such a beautiful thing. I missed out for a very long time on what it meant to have a best friend, for example. Um, so yeah, that's one thing I'm extremely proud of. And then the other thing that I um really found difficult was health. I think the health consequences of trauma, something that maybe we I feel we don't talk about as much. Um, but as I said earlier, I masked quite well, you know, I appeared to be okay on the outside. The way that I dealt with my trauma was overeating, I didn't exercise, I isolated myself. So physically I was not healthy, I was not okay. I wasn't looking after myself, I was punishing myself and my body for things that other people had done to me. And it was around six or seven years ago that I had a bit of a light bulb moment. I think it was just after my youngest son was born, where I realized that I had been punishing myself and that I was I was still miserable. Um so one of the biggest things I'm proud of is realizing that and realizing that I was um not processing the trauma and that I was essentially trying to bury everything through overeating, uh, then starving myself, not exercising, looking in my looking at the mirror and crying and saying horrible things about my body, all of that stuff. Um and so I gradually started working on that, and I'm very pleased to say that that is no longer an issue for me now. So now I live a relatively healthy, you know, healthy life. I eat healthily, uh, occasionally over indoors, who doesn't? Um, but I try to exercise, I prioritize sleep, all the simple things, I think. Um and that has had a massive impact on my life. So I'm super proud of that as well.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah, that's terrific. And but I mean, we're all shaped by our childhood experiences, people uh say, but I guess I'm not sure how much people delve into that. Um I guess we when when childhood is is uh problematic, challenging, there's a lot of adversity, then there's a lot more uh uh delving into that that occurs. You did mention that there are some in your in your previous response, you did mention that there are some things that probably haven't been fully gotten over. Um and and I guess, of course, so from my perspective as a clinician working in this area for the last 30 years, I I would say that 100% getting over trauma, such that trauma never existed, is is a pipe dream. That doesn't happen. Um the best we can expect is that it doesn't continue to uh impact your life negatively on a daily basis. But there and and I talk about enduring sensitivities. So I wondered about what what enduring sensitivities um what are things that are uh that are sensitive to you and how you how you manage those those things.

Hayley:

Such a great question. I get asked an awful lot whether I think that people can fully heal from trauma. Uh, and I have a very similar view to you. I think that you can go on to live a very meaningful and content life where you know that the trauma isn't overtaking your day-to-day, um, but it's always there, it's always bubbling in the background somewhere, and it is very much a case of managing it. Um for me, there are definitely certain things that bring bring it up very quickly and very easily. Um, I'm quite open around how I experience heightened anxiety quite frequently, and that's probably one of my biggest challenges still to this day. I have worked an awful lot around you know, on managing anxiety over the years because it was debilitating at one point in my life, especially in those early years after leaving Spain. Uh, one thing for me in particular is abandonment. Yeah. Um, and that very much stems from even before Spain, um, being abandoned by my father as a as a little girl, moving to Spain, having lots of challenges there with my mum, then that relationship I was in, and also me taking my son away from Spain and almost you know removing a key person from him. So for me, anything that could trigger a sense of abandonment is a big issue. And that can be something as simple, Colby, as my husband going out in the car and me not hearing from him for a little while. So I don't know that he's arrived safely somewhere. And previously, you know, a couple of years ago, um, he would, for example, drive to the motor, uh not to the motorway, drive down the motorway to get to the cinema. Should be a 20-minute drive. If he hadn't messaged me within the 20 minutes exactly, and I would be sat there with my phone with a timer on, I would be having a full-on panic attack, struggling to breathe at the bottom of the stairs in my house, uh, ready to call the police because the ambulance, because I generally thought that he'd died and abandoned me. And that was not a nice place to be. I'm no longer at that stage, thankfully. I've worked a lot, been to therapy, really, really tried to get over that. Um, but it definitely still comes up. There are definitely moments where I have this really horrendous fear that I'm going to be abandoned again. And that's where that little inner Haley is still hurting a lot. Um, I manage that thanks to therapy and thanks to exploring that. I'm very aware of when those feelings come up. Um, so for example, today with swimming lessons, my husband took the little one swimming. I noticed that the feeling came up thinking, oh, they should be back by now. And the challenge that I have is that I live very near a hospital and ambulances go past my house very, very frequently. So for me, any sort of ambulance, you know, the sirens of the ambulance, that automatically makes me go to the extreme of they're dead, they've had an accident, I've been abandoned, I can't survive without them. And it's very easy for me to fall into panic attacks that will then last for several hours and completely knock me out for the evening. Um, and that can still happen today. Thankfully, during the day, I think during my working day, I'm generally quite contained. It's you know, I do very well, I've not really had any issues. It does tend to be once I take my professional hat off, um, that's where that's where the trauma can resurface a little bit more.

Colby:

It's interesting, isn't it? Yes. I've I've I'm I'm a uh how would you temperamentally not as intemperamental, but by temperament, I am a very shy person. And no one believes it, except for my wife. She she's the only only person that believes that. Certainly no one that I've ever worked with believes it because I'm so war high warmth, high energy, and and and very sociable. But when you're in role, when you're in certain roles, you you almost you develop an identity within that that role. Now, some people, yeah, and and that and that identity can be protective as well, you know, like it'd be terrible if I was a child psychologist and uh and was just painfully shy. That would kids wouldn't want to come and see the painfully shy psychologist, I'm sure.

Hayley:

Um well, maybe maybe one or two, but overall you need a bit of a personality, don't you to wear a children?

Colby:

I think you do. And uh yeah, they never believe I get angry either. They just think, you know, I'm this big big because I am very large, this big um um uh friendly bear type character.

Hayley:

That's so sweet though. Yes, but I get I get the same people can't imagine me being cross or angry um because I'm you know, just go about this. This is you know, this is me, this is what you get. But yes, absolutely, come five, six o'clock, that's when I take my professional hat off, relax, and that's where some of those things can very easily resurface.

Colby:

Yeah, it's interesting. Uh do you ever feel like if you, you know, if you knew the real me, if you knew what was really going on?

Hayley:

What would people think?

Colby:

Yeah, well, as you can watch with me. If you're but if it's it's that if you knew the real me, it's kind of like some people would say that um they're pretending to be someone they're not most of the time. I would say there's a kid in me who wanted to make friends and and and and have fun with with uh, you know, it's like it's part of me. In the same way we've talked about things have been part of you, notwithstanding how life has panned out.

Hayley:

I think we're all actors, you know. I I think that we all put on different masks throughout the day, and and that's just the way it is. I'm a bit you know, very passionate about being authentic. Um, and I do I don't believe that I'm not authentic at work at all. I I think that I absolutely am the person that I'm meant to be at work and the psychologist that I'm meant to be, and I don't feel like I have to pretend to be that person. Um, it's not when I, you know, when I talk about masking, for example, I don't feel like I'm holding the anxiety together to get through my day. It's more that professionally I have a different skill set and I'm interacting with different people, that you know, that my trauma and that isn't it's not relevant within that context. Whereas, of course, when you then get back into your personal life, I take all of that, put it to one side. I'm no longer the psychologist, I'm the wife, I'm the mum, I'm Haley, I have all these other interests and hobbies outside of psychology. Um, so I think that I'm authentic in most places to you know, to a certain extent, there's always going to be some things that we've kind of hide a little bit. But yeah, I believe we're all we're all just actors walking around putting on different masks depending on the situation we're in. And I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily. I quite enjoy the different experiences I get from doing that.

Colby:

Yeah, I I I'm not taking issue with it, but the the I would say we're channelers. We're all channel, you know, like in different circumstances we channel a different part of ourselves, but it is still us.

Hayley:

Yes.

Colby:

And I you know, some of my older older teenagers who've been been through a lot um struggle to struggle to to to realize that that that it's all still part of the same person. It's not you know, not necessarily other personas or other or autars, but um um yeah, I think we just I don't I don't think Colby at work is not Colby. It's just Colby at work channels, you know, another part of Colby. And I think it sounds like you do too. And authenticity. Authenticity is a bit of a buzzword, I think, that uh at the moment, but um, but I notwithstanding that, I do think that, you know, as time goes on, people highlight different aspects of relating that are important, and I do think that uh uh authenticity is one of them. Yeah, now you you on that day a week that you're not um working for the keys group, you focus on on talking to well, I mean you talk to people as part of your role at the Keys Group as well, uh, about um the the needs of of um children at school. Um you talk to parents, you talk to to teachers. I'm not sure if you you you had the opportunity to speak to child safeguarding authorities, maybe in your public speaking you do. What what what are some of the key messages that you want them to hear about children who are experiencing adversity and what should they be doing about it?

Hayley:

So I think one of the key things for me is helping the adults that work in the systems around children to really recognise that children are communicating through their behaviours that there is an unmet need. Um, they are crying out for help and support and understanding. So I'm very passionate about uh trauma-informed practice. And I know that that over here is a bit of a buzzword or a buzz concept as well, and I think that it can be a little bit blurry in terms of people's understanding of what that means. Um, essentially the way that I view it is can we please understand the impact of trauma on individuals' sense of self, their behaviour, their sense of the world, have that understanding as adults and respond with uh compassion, but also make sure that we do have those boundaries in place. And I think one of the challenges that I'm often seeing here at least is that people are misunderstanding trauma-informed practice for permissive permissiveness. Um, so essentially not wanting to put any consequences or any boundaries or um restrictions in place because they fear that that could uh re-traumatize the child or that could be the wrong, wrong thing to do. And as part of my own journey and to get to the point where I am, one of the things that my husband was extremely good at as a former police officer in Colombia, he was very good at being quite firm with me. Uh he was very understanding and very kind, but he absolutely put his foot down quite often and said, enough is enough. Um, you can't sit around like this for your whole life, Haley. And I absolutely feel that that was crucial for me to continue developing because if not, I would have just probably laid on the sofa all day every day and not progressed. Uh so for me that's important to try to translate into the work that I do is let's be compassionate and kind, but we also do need to put our food down and we need to help uh children and parents and adults that support them to take accountability for some of the things that they're maybe not doing, that's you know, things that maybe do need changing or things that aren't um appropriate, for example. So that's one of my key messages is kind of trauma-informed practice with boundaries and accountability is really important for me. And then in line with that, um, I'm very passionate about trauma-affected parenting, really refer to it as. It's when we've got families that are parenting themselves through their own trauma. And I feel like we often focus so much on the downside, the problems, what the parents aren't doing well. Let's put all the blame on the parents, and then sometimes it will result in the children not being able to live with their parents anymore, and families get separated, and it's extremely traumatic all round. And there's quite a lot of negative narratives still around the parents and care, you know, the parents and carers. And something that I'm very passionate about is supporting authorities and professionals to open up conversations with parents and carers where they can start to feel safe enough to recognise some of their challenges as parents and to take that accountability with that compassion and that kindness. And again, that's a journey that I've had to be on myself, um, where I've had to learn some of the mistakes that I made and I've had to learn to repair those as a parent. So I guess, yeah, the messages that I share are very much from lived experience, things that I've experienced either as a as a parent or as a professional. Uh generally they're quite well received, um, but I do get some pushback, especially around the consequences, boundaries. I think people don't like the word boundaries, and accountability can be a little bit triggering for people as well.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. I think you get it, it's a bit of a mixed bag on on that particular issue that um I can I can remember standing in front of a group of uh brand new foster carers and talking about therapeutic parenting and talking also about you know responding to the unmet need or responding to the child's experience. I think it's broader than that. I I think it's broader than that, I just say it's responding to the child's experience. Um and and people saying to me, but won't that we just won't that just spoil the child? And I I you know, and I was and I I would be thinking these are the least spoilt children that are coming, you know, that that you can you can probably uh uh think of. I had um I had a s I had a similar experience only uh yesterday um where where someone described a ch a young person as well they have to they have to get used at the with at the eye with the idea that they can't have uh everything. And and I and I had and I put it to them, well, this is someone who by experience the reality of their life is that they've had so little. So you know and they've replaced it with a lot of stuff, so they've got to move into a house and there's not enough room for all their stuff. But this idea it was lucky, that was the word. He has to he has to realise he how lucky he was to have his current placement where he could keep and I said if you know his circumstances, you would think, and I certainly think he's probably the most unlucky young person I've ever met. And uh yeah, so the other thing that that came through in what you were saying across this conversation is the power of relationships to heal. And I yeah, and I and I so I think you know, we were with schools, I think we were having this quick little chat before we started the podcast, but but you know, oftentimes schools uh can be a a place of of felt rejection for our young people and uh because the boundaries are are exclusion. Um what what are you what are your thoughts around that balance between accountability uh for behaviour and boundaries around behaviour whilst also maintaining connection?

Hayley:

Oh so an error and very passionate about, and something that we talk an awful lot around with my work here at Keyes Group is what is that balance? What does that look like? How can we support children to learn and to not do things that put themselves at harm or others at harm, uh, whilst also not being punitive like a lot of our mainstream schools are here in England? Um, I'm not sure, Colby, if you're familiar with an approach um called emotion coaching, um, which we use here in England quite a lot. So it's something I'm very passionate about, which is very much about you know validating, you know, connect connecting with the child, validating their emotional experiences, focusing on the underlying emotions uh that underpin behaviours rather than focusing on the behaviour. And if we can do all of that groundwork, as I call it, that and connect with the child on that level, we can then put in the boundary or say, actually, no, that's not okay. We don't do that. Um, or we can put in a natural consequence, you know, for example. Um, but we're doing that with somebody that they the child feels safe with, and therefore that boundary, that accountability shouldn't feel traumatic or too triggering. It should be a moment for the child to learn where they feel like, oh, actually, okay, yes, maybe I made a bit of a mistake, but it's safe and it's okay for me to learn from this. And oh, I feel I feel okay about that. And that's where that relationship's really, really crucial. And a lot of the work that we do is around helping the adult to actually regulate themselves in those moments. Because what we tend to see is that the adults really struggle to keep their calm, and that's where the boundaries actually probably aren't boundaries, they become punishments. Um, and that's where it becomes extremely challenging for the child, and that's where relationships are ruptured, and then it's a constant cycle of rupture repair, rupture repair. Whereas if we do that groundwork, I think it's much easier to put the boundary in place and then repair if you need to, but hopefully you won't need to as much.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. I remember being um at a conference many years ago now, a lot of uh 17 odd years ago, 18 years ago. Anyway, at that time, there were people from education there and education leadership, and they were talking about how you can't you can't be like the the senior leader for well-being and the deputy principal at the same time. So so in our education system, the deputy principal is kind of the main disciplinary in the school. Um, the principal is the public face of the school, um, but the deputy principal is kind of like the the strength behind the throne, so to speak, and who manages, and then we have uh well-being leaders who are there for student well-being. Anyway, it was just an interesting perspective that in school they couldn't see that how uh at least the people who are there that were talking, couldn't see how you can be you can you can be both boundaried and sensitive and responsive. Yeah. And and interestingly, isn't that what an authoritative parent is like? They understand.

Hayley:

This is it, I think yeah. Yeah, yeah, this is it. And this is when you know, when we deliver our emotion coaching training, we get to a slide where we have the different parenting styles on there. And most people have seen that before because I think you know, years ago, before I qualified, there was a lot of discussion about different parenting types. Um, it's no, it's no different to that. But I think for some reason we've shifted into, as I said, we either here in England I'm seeing either extremely punitive approaches, uh, very much the kind of children should be seen and not heard, you follow my instructions, you do as you're told. If you don't look, you'll centered attention. And then we've got the complete opposite, which is, oh, I can't put any boundaries in place at all. Um, I don't, you know, I don't want to cause the child any any more trauma. I'm like, we can absolutely just take, take, take the both, let's merge them together. I mean, absolutely can, you know, do such a wonderful job. I think part of the challenge is that we've got an awful lot of adults that are struggling themselves, and it's quite easy to to flip, isn't it, to either become more punitive or to just be more lenient because it can be easier in the not the long term, but in the moment, let it let it go.

Colby:

Yeah, and that's one of the one of the themes that's come through quite a number of times on this podcast that you you need to but the first step in trauma-informed practice is to look after the adults who you uh who you are expecting to provide um reparative relationships and rela and reparative care. Yeah, because if they they can't do it, if they're they're preoccupied with their own feelings, uh, their own experiences, they're gonna struggle. Everyone will everyone will struggle to focus on someone else's experience when they don't feel heard and understood and acknowledged around their own.

Hayley:

Yeah, that's a big part of my role um is to support the adults and it has such a such a positive impact when there's the time to do it.

Colby:

So yeah, uh and that's that's uh again something I don't see much of here, but yeah, that comes through is that um adults do respond very well to acknowledgement of their experience of the work. Yeah. Yeah. Do you is there anything that you particularly say to parents, teachers, safeguarding authorities to keep an eye out for to you know, kind of like red flags, I guess, that a child is potentially really going through a tough time.

Hayley:

So I'm extremely passionate about keeping an eye out for the children that are making the less noise. Um, I think that we have children that present in very different ways. And my concern is that we have an awful lot of children that are not um communicating their needs through their behaviours, uh, kind of external behaviours. They're not walking around shouting or screaming or punching or swearing. Um, so one of my biggest passions is helping the adults to recognise some of those more subtle signs that actually somebody is really struggling. Um, and again, that comes from lived experience as well as my professional training. I'm very passionate about children that don't attend school for emotional reasons, children that are at home in their bedrooms not causing any harm in public, uh, and they're the ones that quite often get forgotten about, and that I find very distressing. Um so, yes, it's very much about broadening people's understanding of what a child in pain might look like because I think we might have a bit of a skewed view of you know the children that are shouting the loudest, but actually sometimes the children speaking the least are the ones that I feel most concerned about. Um so that's one of my main messages to uh professionals and parents.

Colby:

Yeah. Did anyone follow you up in Spain when you stopped going to school? That you recall?

Hayley:

No, unfortunately not. You know, we're talking, gosh, how many years ago? 15, 16 years ago. Uh Spain, I think from what people have said, it's kind of 30 years behind England in terms of their processes and so on. Um I don't remember, we didn't have a social worker. Um I was almost, they were strongly encouraging me to have an abortion when I felt when I fell pregnant at the age of 14. There was a clinical psychologist that sent me home with a a doll uh to look after for the weekend to convince me that having a baby was challenging. Um didn't work, obviously, because a doll was cute and I loved pushing it around in a pushchair. Um and after I, so the day of the abortion when I didn't actually go in, that was the last of the medical involvement that I'd had, and then I didn't go to school after that, and there was no knock at the door, there was no telephone call. Um, and I then moved at that point, I was still living with my mum, and then I moved in with this um this man, quite a long way away from where I had been with my mum, and I don't think that anybody knew where I was. I I believe that I was missing from the system. Yeah, I think that was one of the biggest challenges is that I was completely missing. Um nobody knew where I was, what I was doing, and I was just hence I was so trapped. Yeah.

Colby:

I don't want to finish on that note, Hailey. I I want to ask you what what what does the future hold for you and your family, do you think? And and I know one of the things in our communications that you've mentioned is your is the book that you're writing.

Hayley:

The book. Yes, so I have lots of ambitions and lots of hope for the future. I'm a very hopeful person. Uh some key things that I would very much like to achieve on a professional level is to continue developing my expertise in supporting children that experience trauma. I'm still very early career, so I've only been qualified for three years. So I still have an awful lot to learn.

Colby:

And um I can recommend a book.

Hayley:

Please do. Is it the one I can see on the screen? Yeah, I thought you'd say that. I'm yeah, I'll be able to. Can I have a signed copy, please?

Colby:

I need that. I didn't need to do another edition. I need it needs to be updated. But anyway, go on. Go on.

Hayley:

If you want if you want a co author, um so yes, so I want to very much continue developing. My expertise in this area. I would very much like to write a book or several. I've always been passionate about writing ever since I was a little girl. That was alongside being a boss, a boss lady, I wanted to be a writer. That was that was my dream to be a writer and be a boss lady. I don't think I'll ever be the boss lady that I envisioned as a child, but I do believe that I can try to find that inner writer. So I'm very open on LinkedIn and within my talks around being a young parent and the impact that that has had and the journey that I've had to go through with my son, who is now almost 17, to repair some of the significant trauma that he experienced as well when he was very little. So part of that is writing a book proposed to title Sorry Son, which is essentially a book dedicated to him, where I reflect on my life and how I got to the point of becoming a young parent and how I didn't know what I didn't know, and then how I decided that I wanted to learn and do better. And obviously to get to this point where I think I am a good enough parent, um, but essentially apologizing for some of the mistakes that I made. A lot of people, when I tell them this, they go, Oh, that sounds really depressing. Whereas actually it's meant to be really hopeful. And one of my biggest um messages is to parents, you know, say sorry, we all mess up sometimes. Let's have more informal conversations. Yes, absolutely say sorry to your children, recognise the mistakes that you made, acknowledge them, and take accountability and grow. And that's what I've done. And it's you know, it's working okay. It's I'm not saying everything's perfect because it isn't. So that's that's one bit, you know, pizza. That's a project that I'm currently working on. Um, it's just taking my time to write it because it is obviously very emotive and it's it's meant to be for my son with then the wider impact for parents and professionals, and that's kind of secondary impact.

Colby:

What does he think of that? Does he know?

Hayley:

He does know, yes, and I do talk about my son quite a lot, and he he knows that I do, and he's he I have his permission. Um, hence I start. I I actually waited um until I started using LinkedIn and talking more publicly about my experience because I was very mindful of him because he's part of our you know, our story. This is our story, it's not mine, it's ours. Um, I feel very privileged to have a son that is as passionate as I am about helping people. And he often says to me, Mum, I love that you want to help people not go through some of the stuff we've been through. And if our story can do that, then yes, let's do it. And he has asked me if he could do some public speaking with me, um, you know, together to share our story in the future. I still feel that he's a little bit young. I want him to, you know, become an adult and kind of find himself more before I um potentially invite him to do that because I don't want him to look back and regret doing it. Uh so yeah, very, very wonderful son, and I'm very excited to see what his future is. Um and then outside of that, so I want to write a book, I want to continue developing my practice. I'd also very much like to lecture. Um, I'm very passionate about teaching, I love sharing knowledge, I love talking, as it's probably quite obvious from this. And when you put me in front of a group of people to talk, that's when I feel potentially the most authentic. Um, I could just, oh, it it brings me so much joy, and I I take a lot of joy from helping other people work towards their goals. Um it it I struggle to explain how it makes me feel. And the idea of working with adults, especially um young adults, and supporting them achieve their goals, work towards their um careers, that that fills me with a lot of joy. So that's something I'd like to work towards as well. Um, and it kind of links I'm a clinical supervisor at work, and that's one of my favourite parts of the job is is supporting my supervisees to you know make progress and to reflect on the work that they're doing. So I keep my eye out definitely for educational psychology lecturing positions or guest lecturing positions. Uh nothing's come up yet that would work for me, but here's hoping.

Colby:

Maybe, maybe, maybe the right person will listen to this podcast or um who knows?

Hayley:

That would be wonderful.

Colby:

Heidi, it's been fantastic to have you on. Um it's been, I think, a really uplifting conversation. Um, notwithstanding um yeah, that there uh were chat significant challenges challenges acknowledged. Um but thank you, yeah, thank you for um allowing me to this opportunity to have a chat with you for the for the podcast.

Hayley:

Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, and I really hope that uh for those listening, they can take that take that hope and the inspiration that things can get better. That's a lot of hard work, but things absolutely can get better. So thank you for having me uh for sharing my story. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

Let it open up my eyes if I cry, let it be away, for some let it be away.

Head Shot

Colby Pearce

Host