The Secure Start® Podcast

#36: What If Behaviour Is Just Armour For Hurt? Vicki McKeown

• Colby Pearce • Season 1 • Episode 36

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What if the behaviour that drives you up the wall is actually armour against shame? We sit down with psychotherapist and author Vicky McKeown to unpack how shame and attachment shape everyday life for children, parents, and the professionals who support them. From adoption and fostering to classrooms and case reports, we trace the subtle ways shame shows up and how a shift in language and stance can transform outcomes.

Vicky shares her journey from criminology to trauma therapy and makes a strong case for working with the whole caregiving unit, not just “the child.” We break down Lisa Etherson’s shame containment theory in plain language: why shame fires when connection feels at risk, how people build protective strategies like perfectionism, aggression, or withdrawal, and what adults can do to respond without piling on more shame. We also challenge common behaviour tools in schools — public colour charts, red cards, and time-outs that silence kids but feed their inner critic — and offer simple, shame-aware alternatives that preserve dignity and teach skills.

You’ll hear how Jake and His Shame Armour opens safe conversations at home and in therapy, plus practical exercises Vicky uses to map triggers, slow tricky moments, and help parents “own their stuff.” We talk frankly about child protection and adoption disruptions, why report language matters, and how moving from blame to context supports real change while holding responsibility. If you care about trauma-informed practice, attachment, adoption, or behaviour in schools, this is a grounded, hands-on guide to seeing the mind behind the behaviour and building safety that lasts.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a colleague or friend, and leave a quick review — what’s one shame-aware change you’ll try this week?

Vicki's Bio:

Vicki McKeown is a qualified social worker, psychotherapeutic counsellor, and trauma-informed practitioner with over 15 years of experience supporting children, families, and professionals around attachment, shame, and relational trauma. She is the co-author of Jake and His Shame Armour, a children’s book underpinned by Lisa Etherson’s Shame Containment Theory. Through her work with VLM Therapy Ltd and Better Me Better Us Ltd, Vicki provides specialised training, consultation, and therapeutic support, helping individuals, families and organisations build safer, more connected, and emotionally attuned environments.

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Disclaimer:
Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Further, any advice discussed is general in nature and does not replace clinical advice from a treating clinician.

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Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start Podcast.

Vicki:

Shame is absolutely sort of rippled throughout the system. Some of our approaches, at least historically, are so shame-inducing. Oh my goodness, we are just publicly shaming children all of the time and then expecting a change of behaviour. And for children, young people and adults that already carry such a high level of shame, they're already waiting for that next time to be told that they're bad, they're doing something wrong, and it becomes a sort of cycle, doesn't it? The language changes from that parent failed to that parent given their circumstances really struggled and used alcohol to manage to manage their feelings of shame of not being a good enough parent and not been able to keep you safe. But are you truly trauma-informed if you're not working and acknowledge and shame in that?

Colby:

Hello and welcome to the Secure Start Podcast. I'm Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is a fellow author and psychotherapist working with children and young people recovering from early adversity. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that I come to you from, the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Ghana people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Vicky McKeown. Vicki is a qualified social worker, psychotherapeutic counsellor, and trauma-informed practitioner with over 15 years' experience supporting children, families, and professionals around attachment, shame, and relational trauma. She is the co-author of Jake and His Shame Armour, a children's book underpinned by Lisa Etherson's Shame Containment Theory. Through her work with VLM, Therapy Limited, and BetterMe, Better Us Limited, Vicky provides specialized training, consultation, and therapeutic support, helping individuals and families and organizations build safer, more connected and emotionally in tuned environments. Welcome Vicky.

Vicki:

Hello. Good morning, good evening.

Colby:

Yeah, morning for for me, evening for you. And uh I it's usually at this point in the podcast that I have we have a shared chuckle about all the um times I tripped over myself while I was reading people's bios. But uh um No, you did very well. No, no one will know it, but that's uh that was uh one take. Yeah, one take that'll stay in as it is. So very pleased with that. But you it rather helpfully you made it not too taxing for me. So I think um in in uh um in consideration of that, I wonder if uh you would perhaps start by just telling us a little bit more about yourself, um how you came to this work, the work that you do, and uh and then we'll yeah we'll progress from there.

Vicki:

Yeah. Um so I am based in um England in Newcastle, which I know you have in Newcastle as well in Australia.

Colby:

Um it's not as big.

Vicki:

Are they as friendly as the Geordies as well?

Colby:

Uh I don't think they have a discernible accent either. Well they kind of do. They kind of it gets a little bit broader. I don't know. It's not like it's not like a Geordie accent versus a uh Birmingham accent, so yeah. Um but yeah, but go on, sorry. You tell us your Newcastle.

Vicki:

So I guess my background is I started off doing a degree in criminology and was really keen to work with young offenders, and I guess over time my career has just naturally evolved um as I've got into different parts of work. Um, I know when I was working with young offenders, I felt a frustration at working with just that individual and very much saw the need to work um collaboratively with the whole family. Um, so went on and retrained as a social worker. From that, it felt very reactive, um, which then led to me retrain again as a psychotherapeutic counselor because I'm so passionate about breaking that um breaking that cycle and that intergenerational trauma. And sadly, child protection services, social care don't always have the the capacity, the time to do that sort of deeper meaningful trauma work. So that is really how I've come to be where I am today and do the work that I do today.

Colby:

And breaking the cycle is a uh a really uh um significant, I guess, theme for child protection um uh authorities and jurisdictions around the world. And um maybe we'll just we'll just bookmark that one for a question without notice a little bit later. Uh I think breaking the cycle is something that I also turn my mind to um quite a bit.

Vicki:

I think it's so important, and I have um worked within the Northeast for the last 15 years, so generally speaking, you see the cycle repeating and the same families coming through. And I work um quite a lot in adoption and fostering and also sit on adoption panels, so you absolutely see those same families coming through, which for me makes it even more important that we do that that meaningful work so that yeah, the cycle is broken. But yes, we can come back to that.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I've made a made a bit of a note there on my on my pad. Um so uh yeah, tell us uh were there had there been any besides your own work experience, has there been any uh particularly influential um people that you have uh interacted with and or theoretical frameworks that you find have been really significant in your development um in this space?

Vicki:

I think firstly, um, and I'm sure lots of people say this, it's the children and young people that I work with, because they are very quick to tell you if you're crap and you're not having an impact. So I think that has that's absolutely pushed me to to strive to know more, to do better, to really do that meaningful work, and then on that journey, sort of doing different um training, looking at different modalities and approaches. I'm a big fan of um Don Hughes and the DDP approach, working with um the parent and child or foster care or whoever that person may be. I very much like working with the whole family because I think that's when I believe anyway that you see meaningful change because it's so shaming, I think, for the child to just come into therapy on their own because they live within a family, and if they need to change, so does the unit on which they live within.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Um I know when I read your bio, I was interested that you uh also have an interest in attachment theory um and that that uh guides your work in some way. What would you what do you say about attachment theory?

Vicki:

Absolutely guides the work, and I think what's really interesting, and I hope that it's um changed, but at least in the UK, when I did my master's in social work, we didn't do a lot around attachment theory. I can remember it being so limited, and looking back, I feel like um that was a real failing in the course. And as I say, I do hope that that's changed and evolved because you're working with people and their uh uh attachment patterns and how that plays out and how they go on to parent. So I think it's it's such a key, key thing to be aware of. And as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the work that I do is um with adopted and fostered and kinship care. So attachment is absolutely huge. They've experienced that disrupted attachment, that that rupture. So so much of the work that I do is around sort of repairing and and healing from that and sort of rebuilding that attachment with often, as I say, a foster carer or an adopter, but that absolutely is the is the core, um, I believe, anyway, in the work that I do, and which is why again I'm so passionate about the parents being in the room because we need to facilitate and model that and really promote it. Um, yeah, attachment is absolutely huge. And I think we'd all benefit from understanding our own attachment patterns as practitioners and what we bring into the work that we do with our clients and our own personal relationships. It just helps you understand yourself and others a little bit, doesn't it? And I guess I don't mind a little bit of sort of personal disclosure. And when I um worked with families many years ago, I had a really traumatic experience, and I was really shocked by my colleagues' responses and or lack of responses thereof, and it took some clinical supervision for someone to say, but you're bringing your attachment style into that and expecting you from others because you've been parented in a certain way, you're expecting that same response, and it it's just so important, isn't it, when you work with people, work within teams to have that knowledge and understanding.

Colby:

Yeah, I I do think, I mean, I I refer to it as a guiding framework in my work, and um it's probably always been the main one in the work that I've done across the last 30 odd years. Um, you did you did hint at the uh there at the importance of um being aware of ourselves when we're when we're in this work. And I wonder if there's any particularly uh influential reading that you've done or or influential um training or or or knowledge that you've sought, or whether that's just kind of come through personal reflection in the work that you do.

Vicki:

I think there's so many different people, isn't there, and in terms of all the key theorists, and then just I think so much of it for me anyway is learning in practice, and sort of as I say, clients very much give that verbal and non-verbal feedback, don't they? So it's always taking that, taking that on board. Um I know you you asked earlier sort of who's been influential, and I can think of I've no one mentioned Dan Hughes already, um Dan Siegel, Zoe Loderick, Karen Treisman absolutely love and how they frame different things, how they sort of I know when Lisa was on the podcast, she was talking about being a pragademic, and I think that's so important. I love it when people that are out there doing the research, sort of creating the theories and the models, are still in practice because that's what brings it alive, and you know it's gonna sort of have an impact.

Colby:

Yeah. Lee, I I was I was kind of leading you a little bit towards that because that I was recalling my conversation with Lisa, and this is Lisa Etherson, and we'll talk more about Lisa a little, you know, in a little while as well. But um, she Lisa said two really key things in in her conversation with me. One was yeah, talking about the idea of the prakademics, so the academic, the person who's doing the research and developing that professional knowledge, which I I think it's fair to say that professional knowledge that is imparted from research in an academic institution still carries more weight than or probably carries the most weight in terms of um um how we approach the work. I don't necessarily agree with that, and I'm not, but I think that academics do, you know, they stand, they bridge that gap between um academic endeavor and and knowledge that is generated through that, and something else that Lisa mentioned as well, which is ethnographic ethnographic research. And I and and Lisa said uh talked about it we're kind of all doing ethnographic research as we're as we're working. So yeah, so you are ho honing your knowledge and your skills all the time when when you're working in this space and you're working with people, and you're you're um if you are a f reflective practitioner and not just a technician, and we we would hope that everyone's uh reflective practitioners and not just technicians, but when you do that, you you are conducting your own research uh about what works, what doesn't work, what's the best approach, and um yeah, I think so. I think um uh the work that we do is a valid uh source of of um knowledge and endeavor. Um and and that's why I have part of the reason why I have this podcast. So I have people on who have significant work experience as well as academics, but significant work experience and have developed um uh knowledge along the way.

Vicki:

And I guess with you mentioning Lisa there, so much of sort of how Jake and a shame armor came to be is I used to be based in an office with Lisa, and at the point when we were um in an office together, she hadn't even started a PhD, it was just it was merely an idea, and so we'd often sort of be having those conversations, and a shame containment theory um was developed. Obviously, her theory initially, anyway, was uh with working with adults because she's a psychosexual therapist working with adults, but very much I was so keen to hear about how that would relate to the children and young people I was working with, who were on different floors in the building. And we often used to say if they weren't doing the work with me to address and work through their shame, they would end up being uh Lisa's clients when they became adults. So it was very much trying to already, without us even realising, having those conversations, and um, I'm absolutely a go-away and put things into practice. So we'd have those conversations, she'd be explaining her model and her approach, and I'd be thinking, right, how can I put that into the practice with the clients I'm working? Yeah, because shame with or without realising, especially now when I reflect, has been such a huge theme in the work that I do. Um, and as I say, with or without realising it, and if I think back to sort of young offenders and that uncontained shame in some of their behaviours that they were displaying and working um with adopters and um foster carers and kinship carers now, shame is absolutely sort of rippled throughout the system because for many, many people coming into adoption in terms of adopters, there's lots of shame around not being able to conceive potentially and that infertility um in terms of the children that are coming into care and birth families. Again, there's so much, like we've mentioned already, that intergenerational trauma and the shame that they uh carrying as a result of that. And with if we think about sort of Nathan's um compass of shame, lots of parents, in my opinion, go into that sort of attack others or avoidance and might use drugs and alcohol to sort of manage that shame. So it's there throughout. And then we've got those children that feel a huge level of shame because they feel unloved, unworthy, unwanted by birth families. So, as I say, with or without realizing it's been such a huge thing. Um, and I think I naturally would always bring it into the sort of psychoeducation work that I would do with families, but now it's it's in an even bigger thing that I make sure I really slow it down, do the work with the parents first, because as we know, so much of how as adults we respond to our child's shame is about how we manage shame and how our shame was responded to growing up. Um, so yeah, I think it's absolutely huge. And because of the work I do, I always and the training I deliver, I link up with schools as well. Um, I don't know about in Australia, but in the UK, some of our approaches, at least historically, are so shame-inducing in terms of we have these weather clouds on the board or thermometers, and if a child's what they would deem misbehaving, they get put on the red or the rain cloud. And I think, oh my goodness, we are just publicly shaming children all of the time and then expecting a change of behaviour.

Colby:

It's bonkers, isn't it? It doesn't make sense.

Vicki:

Crazy. I think we're so focused on correcting in quotations behaviour, aren't we? And and managing behaviour that we don't actually look at what it's communicating underneath.

Colby:

Yes, I I think it's almost like we don't think that children have a mind. Their own mind. Yeah, yeah. So we we see um I was having a very interesting conversation with the podcast guest, forthcoming podcast, probably within the next few days. So um well it will have been released, I think, just before yours. And we talked about the idea that that um we both observe as being quite pervasive is that that um that in some senses we don't consider that children have their own mind. And even very young children. We we just we're reacting and responding to behaviour, and maybe we see that peop they are seen as a little bundle of behaviours. Um so if we don't see them as having their own mind, we don't necessarily turn ourselves to um considering what their experience is and what they make of their experience. Yeah. And um shame you you've you've referred to shame and um you've referred to Lisa's shame containment theory, and I would I am getting the sense that that's also a very powerful um guiding framework uh for you in in the practice that you do. Um I wonder I've had Lisa on and but for those people who haven't um read about uh Lisa's work or or heard her on my podcast or others that she's she's done, perhaps if you could just give us a little bit of an explanation of of shame containment theory um and how it is um how you put it into practice in your work.

Vicki:

Well, I definitely won't be able to explain it as well as Lisa, so people should definitely check out her stuff. But I guess it really highlights that shame is part of our attachment system and it goes off as an alarm um when we fear that real or perceived rejection and we need to stay connected with our adult or with our parent or caregiver. Um which again, when we talked about attachment earlier, it just shows, doesn't it, how it's absolutely all linked. And Lisa's theory very much talks about shame and how we respond to it and how it can be contained shame or uncontained shame. And the uncontained shame might come across in sort of withdrawal, sort of violence, big outbursts, and how we develop over time, and in response to how people uh respond to our shame, shame, shame containment strategies.

unknown:

And

Vicki:

Think even as adults, that's just really useful to know that some of our behaviours have a purpose. They're there to try and protect us, to help us survive, to contain our shame. Um, and even with some of the adult clients I work with and the parents, just explaining this theory to them helps them understand them themselves and their responses in certain situations, or perhaps why they withdraw in terms of containing the shame, so they're withdrawing from certain situations to avoid any shame-inducing experience. And again, I think if we think about how much sort of research has changed over time, traditional parenting, in my opinion, anyway, was really shaming because at times of overwhelm or need we would put a child onto a naughty step or tie them out or send them to their bedrooms. And we didn't ever teach children that shame is appropriate, it's a valid emotion, it's something to sort of be supported through and it will pass. It has a purpose for being there. I think over time, children that are now that adults are feeling that shame is something to be avoided at all costs, um, which is absolutely not true. So I guess with with um Lisa's shame containment theory, I very much not dilute it but sort of adapt it into child-friendly, child-friendly language and things like that. Yeah. So in terms of the book, Jake and the Shame Armour, as with many other resources that I might often bring into sessions with a child, it's useful to sort of read that story so that a child can relate to it. It's not direct, it's not saying this is you, but they can start to see elements of themselves in a very non-shaming way. And then so often when I've uh when I've used it in sessions, I've found that that children will say, I do that, or someone in my class does that, or that's how I feel. And it just starts that language and really gives them permission to initiate and to engage with shame without feeling shame, um, and helps the the adult, just through, as I say, with the parent being in the room, it's you can start to have those open, safe, supported conversations. And where possible, I think it's really useful for the parent to be able to lean into their vulnerability because we're we're human too, and we make mistakes and we experience shame. And I think being able to share that with your child really yeah, brings the human side, and as I say, can be really healing for both child and parent, and how you move forward with it.

Colby:

And I wonder about the role as well in that of then parents being able to identify with the idea of an inner world in their children, you know, that they're not just reacting and responding to things that happen, but they have they have their own inner world and inner life. Um and um, you know, there are, I guess, schools of thought in psychotherapy that one of the one of the reasons why we interact with parents and uh and when we do is that we encourage we're encouraging them to think about the internal world of their children. And um one way of doing that is to reflect on their own experiences growing up and uh and how they felt and how they responded to and how they thought about um things that happened in their life.

Vicki:

And I think that can be so difficult for adults to do, can't it, given their own experience? Uh I mean, just talking generally, I can think of many, many adults personally and professionally, that actually it's a scary thing to connect with if as a child growing up, if you displayed an emotion, had a need, made a mistake, if that was shut down, dismissed, minimized. As an adult, as a therapist trying to engage with a parent, it takes time, doesn't it? You need to build that safe therapeutic relationship, otherwise it feels really exposing again, and we risk re-traumatising, re-shaming. So it's so important that it's done in a really safe, supported way at a at a pace that feels right for everybody involved, because yeah, you absolutely don't want to leave people in a worse place than than what they came to. But yeah, no, I think it's it's so important for adults to own their stuff, and that's a phrase I often use in in practice, hence the name of my training company, Better Me, Better Us, because we have to work on ourselves before we can sort of enhance our relationships around us, whether that's personally or professionally. But it starts with us, doesn't it?

Colby:

And as you speak about that, it puts me in mind of um adults being the parents being aware of their own shame containment strategies and how that influences the way they um they parent. And um, you've talked about a number of things. Shame is a very powerful regulating emotion and hence is um largely avoided by people. Um it may not people may not even know that it's shame and the experience, they may not even be able to put a label on that, um, on the their own experience or the experience of others. Um I think it'd be really interesting for for our listeners to hear what um what shame looks like. What shame and what sh particularly what shame containment strategies look like in children and young people.

Vicki:

I guess shame presents differently in everybody, depending on their experience, both past and present, and the um environment that they're in. So it shame can present in terms of sort of um lying behaviour, sort of denying that they've done something, like um I've mentioned already, that violence and aggression, that withdrawal from people going really quiet, perfectionism. Again, I know I keep speaking about um adopted young people, but especially when a child has newly moved in with adopters, we see a lot of perfectionism because I want you to like me, I want you to love me, I don't want you to see, to see my shame and to see that I'm unworthy and lovable. Um, and I know it can then be a shock when sort of a year down the line adopters are like, this isn't the child that initially moved into the into the home. Um, when um those behaviours come out. And so, yeah, those behaviours can come out in in different ways depending on who they're with. I think we see a lot of young people, young males, I don't want to generalize too much, but sort of going to the that aggressive, violent behavior to re-contain their shame if they feel exposed. Um, because yeah, there's that masculinity and that's a whole other topic, isn't it? But absolutely, there's that aggression um and violent behaviour. And I know Lisa and I spoke about because obviously we've written the book about Jake, about a male, and how perhaps we need to write a book about a female because it might present so differently, not always, but can present so differently in terms of that that withdrawn, that self-harming behaviour, perhaps. Um, and again, in lots of young girls, there is yeah, that perfectionism absolutely took the words out of my mouth.

Colby:

Um so what I what I'm hearing you say is that uh perhaps a lot of uh um or at least a significant proportion of behaviours of concern that the adults might identify are uh in fact shown containment behaviours. And those shown containment behaviours can be habitual. Um we as I understand it, we do them all the time all the time or a lot of the time, and and so perfectionism might be an example of that. Um lying might might be an example of that. Um we may there may we may be aggressive a lot of the time, or a child may be aggressive a lot of the time, but they may also be just situationally aggressive as well. So you you know, so there's there's kind of attachment issue uh attachment injuries and and the management of those with with uh certain shame containment strategies, I guess, and then there's those big uh um times of uncontained shame. And it's interesting when you shame is the emotion. But there are there are ideas or beliefs or thoughts, cognitions, however you want to um refer to them, but there are self-deprecating ideas that are associated with with the experience of shame, which um uh you being unlovable, not good enough, uh, and uh unworthy. I think inadequacy, feelings of inadequacy is probably one of the big ones. And that's I guess that that that's the nexus or the the the the point of meeting between maybe one of, but is an important meeting of shame containment theory and attachment theory. Because attachment has so much influence over those internal beliefs, those ideas that we have about ourselves um and other people and our world. And um and shame's a pervasive, everyone has shame. It's a it's it's part of it's a bit like anxiety, it's part of the human condition. Um I what I say about anxiety is it stops you from doing dumb things. When it's functional, it just stops you from doing things that that jeopardize your well-being, uh physical, emotional. Um and shame in a way has a has a it has a powerful regulating influence, and that's I guess why circling back to what you were saying about conventional behaviour management, that's why it has become part of you know endemic into the in the way that we have raised children and cared for children in schools and so on, and people would then say wow, these this this conventional behaviour management you know express all the worries that uh or concerns that you have about it that you like. It's really powerful. But it's not really, it's not the strategy, it's the shame that is the regulating influence.

Vicki:

And I think for so much of it it's it's the relationship, isn't it? It's relational, like we keep talking about attachment, it's it's that human-to-human connection and moving away from corrective sort of behaviour management to just meeting someone on the level that they're at. Um and I know we've already mentioned, but just to sort of emphasize again, I think when we see that defiance, that aggression, that that back chat, so many people, and and to be fair, myself, sometimes in the moment, you you go to respond to that presenting behavior, don't you? And it's absolutely about slowing it down. What is behind that? Because actually, through challenging, through trying to correct that behaviour isn't helpful at all. It doesn't help now or in terms of future learning, it just feeds into that child's inner critic, doesn't it? It becomes their internal voice. And for children, young people and adults that already carry such a high level of shame, they're already waiting for that next time to be told that they're they're bad, they're doing something wrong, and it becomes a sort of cycle, doesn't it?

Colby:

Yeah, that's right. And if they if they are experiencing pervasive shame, then um it they they habituate to it to a certain extent. So it it actually loses some of its power to stop them from doing uh uh the behaviours that we worry about. Um I do think I I do think it's so important to um the the chain containment theory and as well as attachment theory and other theories in this space, it they're so important to in terms of encouraging adults to consider the experience, not just focus on the behaviour of the child. Yeah. I wondered while while you were talking and I asked you about what the shame and shame containment strategies look like in the children, I was also thinking about well, what is it what do they look like in parents? U and how does that do they particularly how do they look in terms of how parents approach that role, be whether they're kinship parents, adoptive parents, birth parents.

Vicki:

I think it's really interesting because how I see um shame present in the parents that I work with. I think sometimes um I see parents go into that withdrawal and they don't want to be part of the child's therapeutic process. And I know that's a protection thing because they don't want to be to be vulnerable to be in an environment where they might be told that they need to do something differently or how their parenting isn't working. Um and again, from experience, I often see sort of parents putting so much, and I know you've mentioned it, so much focus on the child rather than understanding their inner world and what that's about, that we go into sort of yes, but you did that, you hurt my feelings, you upset me, you made me angry, and we project that parents, the adults project so much onto their child.

Colby:

Um as if it as if that wasn't something that they that was under their own potential influence, their feelings, their reactions.

Vicki:

And I keep, I know I've said a few times today about people being human, but we're finding um more and more in the UK, um, there's adoption disruptions and adoptions are breaking down. And I think lots of adopters are academic, they're very knowledgeable, intelligent per people. So there's a level of shame that that comes up when having to approach services for support, especially if those sort of social care, those child protection services are used to often working with sort of low socioeconomic areas. So actually, these middle class families, those workers aren't always experienced in responding to that. And some of the interactions, the language that professionals are using. Well, why have you done that? What led you to do that? Just um really blaming and shaming, which again isn't helpful, is it? Because everybody then sort of puts on their shame armour and becomes really defensive and protective because they feel threatened by the professionals, by the system. Um, and equally social workers feel threatened, don't they, when when families are telling them they're doing a bad job or could do better, their shame armour comes on and and it's just it's happening everywhere.

Colby:

I do wonder whether, and I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. I do wonder whether it's endemic. We talked about it a little bit earlier, that people are not, they don't easily or immediately turn their mind to the experience of another person. That we we remain superficially superficially connected to what we're observing in others, and usually that's around their behaviour. There's an inordinate uh focus on those very easily observed behaviours or emotional expressions, and um and the value of showing containment theory and theories like it is the way or one aspect is the way in which it encourages people to consider that another person has a mind. They they they they experience things and they think and about uh things, or they may not even think about it. They have a they have a subconscious or an unconscious mind that is uh processing and um responding uh to the experience of the world of of relationships.

Vicki:

Out of just interest then, what do you think is sort of the reason for that why people sort of don't connect on a deeper level to others' experiences?

Colby:

Hang on a moment.

Vicki:

I was just curious, I'm just always learning.

Colby:

This is my podcast. I'll do the questions, thank you. Um well, I think um I wonder if people I I think I think life is hard, and I think really for a lot of people, and I think and and if it isn't contemporaneously it has been and it will be again. And I think that people habitually defend against considering their own experience, thinking about their own experience. So I think that that probably so um so my first response would be that I I think that everyone probably struggle not everyone, but a lot of people struggle with making the transition from being a observing and reacting and responding person and practitioner to a thinking one. And you you you can you can see that, for example, in the level of interest in that the that's emerging in in reflective practice and reflective approaches. Yeah. As if that that's novel. And and you know, like the reality is it kind of is novel, because I don't think people naturally um reflect on on their inner experience. Not these not not so much these days. I wonder whether when psychoanalysis was perhaps more endemic in the way in which we we talked about mental health and well-being concerns. But I don't even know about that. I d I I maybe I'd just stick with I'm starting to ramble. I would stick with my original answer, which is I don't think people generally um turn their mind to their own experience, let alone the experience of others.

Vicki:

And I think there's something about having um the skills to manage that, isn't it? Because it can feel really overwhelming to sit with your own experience or your own stuff. And if you don't have that support, that network, the skills to sort of understand how to work through it, it can absolutely overwhelm you and flaw you, can't you? So yeah, hear what you're saying, and then being able to sort of relate or see other people's experience and your level of impact and what you're bringing to that situation again is just it's big, isn't it?

Colby:

And I think again, I'm I'm kind of t championing the cause for shame containment theory and attachment theory and other things like that, is that if we're not good at reflecting on our own inner world, our mind our own mind, both conscious and unconscious, um and we we can s we can we can be very judgy or judgmental towards ourselves for the The choices, uh, the behaviors that we've engaged in, the choices that we've made. Um, if we don't so I think one of the things about shame is and shame containment theory is it supports understanding of in the same way that attachment theory and attachment styles do, understanding of why. Why do I keep reacting in this way in this situation? It it's not just the behaviour that is a concern, it's the it's actually the reasons why I do that, that are, you know, if we can just if I can just if we can have a conversation or conversations and work out what's really going on there, then there's some hope for for healing. Um and I think yeah, we we've we've all we've gone through, particularly in um the mental health fields, and I think psychology has probably been a big driver of this, this idea that we don't need to worry about the reasons why behaviors occur, we just need to change correct those behaviors, you know. We just need to implement um psychological strategies and um or engage in behaviors that that are counter that kind of countermand those those behaviors of concern or those experiences of concern. Um so even professionally, and particularly for psychology, we moved into CBT and we moved away from consideration of the inner world, the unconscious and unconscious motivated unconscious motivators and drivers. Um and maybe shame was part of that. You know how shame is pervasive. Maybe, maybe you'd have to find out a more about the original proponents of of uh things like CBT, for example, um, and wonder about what was their motivation for saying, hang on a minute, we don't need to worry about why, we only need to focus on correcting what. Oh god.

Vicki:

And no, but that's probably a bigger topic, isn't it? But it was making me think about um, I was reading something that Betsy De Terry had written fairly well, she might not have written it recently, that talked about sort of trauma processing and trauma recovery, sorry, and she said, can we can we really recover from trauma if we don't acknowledge the impact of shame? And I guess so many people might not be explicitly working with shame. And does that mean that those individuals are always going to be stuck in that sort of that shame loop and find themselves um experiencing uncontained shame and not really understanding their behaviours and responses? And it definitely made me think and reflect in terms of how much sort of my knowledge and understanding has evolved over time. And if I could go back and work with some clients that I worked with 15 years ago, how how I would do it differently or be bringing in shame more explicitly to the work that I was doing.

Colby:

That's a brave thing to do, and not everyone's up for that either, you know, for a range of reasons, including that they just they run off their feet and they don't have time to do that. And you know, you see that a lot in in um child protection circles where where people are just run off their feet, reacting and responding in in habitual ways, in procedural ways, because that's how they manage the work that they do. Yeah.

Vicki:

Yeah.

Colby:

Just bringing it back to Jake and is sorry, you were going to say something, add something.

Vicki:

No, I was going to actually link it to that because I was thinking about how the work that I would have done with those clients in the past is very much now what I always try and make sure I do with with the clients I'm working with now, in terms of using Jake and his show mark as a story, as a sort of narrative to start to unpick and relate to the child. And then I think so often, as I say, with children and young people, I think adults are the same. Sometimes we just need that hands-on stuff. And so in in sessions, we might make a shield. When does that show marma come on? What do you protect against? And it's it's role-playing it or playing it out and sort of slowing it down. You can have those conversations whilst you're making your shields or your armour. Um, again, where possible, you hope that the parents able to open up and start to share some of their experiences or sort of relate it more generally to other people that are in their lives. And it's, I know I sometimes use play-doh in terms of having a figure and and covering it in play-doh because that's what it feels like, doesn't it? Like we get hidden behind the shame. Our behaviours that those those other behaviours are are present and evident because we don't want people to see how how bad, how unlovable we are. And it's it's like you've referenced before, it's going back to that core person of who they are and taking the time to understand them and their experience. And it's a slow process, isn't it? And a bit like when you mentioned CBT, I I often still feel frustrated sometimes, not all the time, sometimes when I receive referrals um or bits of work that have been commissioned, and they're like, can you work with this child and family for 12 weeks? 12 weeks to address so much trauma and attachment disruption and shame. 12 weeks is nothing, is it? Yes, it's a starting point, and you can start that psychoeducation, but but some of this is is a lot more long-term and takes time. And and so much of it, like I referenced earlier, is about building that that emotional safety in that therapeutic relationship before you can even get into that work because it just wouldn't be safe to just expose them.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think look, um, I think C CBT has its place, and certainly that you know, the 12 weeks for to implement some behaviour change strategies um for mild to moderate uh mental health concerns, I think that that's its place. I don't I don't think CBT was formulated for the difficult work of relational trauma. I uh uh in and of itself, just as a as a pure CBT uh approach. I know there's trauma-focused CBT. Um I'm not even sure that I think I I think 20 sessions is is kind of recommended in the first tranche of that. Um but I still I'm I'm happy to be corrected on that. But I I do think yeah, when you're limited to tw to 12 sessions, we have something similar here in Australia where you're limited to 10 sessions for which a uh um uh client can access a rebate from our our Medicare system. And um you're kind of almost limited to doing CBT in those circumstances. You can't really scratch the surface too much. I know I know with CBT there is analysis of sorts in terms of understanding the antecedents and and of the behaviour and and later the consequences and reinforces and what the person gets out of it. But um yeah, like I said, it's a bit of it's more of a case of it's not so much why you're doing it from an intra-psychic point of view, it's m it's more about what you do and what we can do to to change, implement behaviour change strategies.

Vicki:

Yeah, definitely.

Colby:

So tell tell us a little bit more about um Jake and his shame armour, um, if you're happy to do so, give some teasers for the listeners um about what what what's in it and and how it um how you use it in therapy.

Vicki:

So as I say, it's very much a storybook, it's it's not huge. I want to say it's 24 pages, but that might not be true. Um and there's there's pictures there along alongside because I think sometimes for children it's not necessarily in the words, it's it's what they see playing out in the pictures. So we're really keen to make sure that the pictures accurately captured some of these behaviours and situations. We wanted to also focus on the day-to-day things that are perhaps um shame-inducing and uh lead to uncontained shame for children. So it's things from like brushing your teeth to the toothpaste being down to being shouted at, um, to daydreaming at school, all the things that, as I say, you don't need to, uh the child doesn't need to have a background of trauma to be experiencing because, like we've said earlier, shame is a valid emotion that we all experience. So we're really keen, at least in this first book, to show how it can apply. And it's an important conversation to have with all children and create um shame-aware families, shame-aware environments, schools, systems, as I say, to just really, really start the conversation. And what's been fascinating, um, and and we're still getting messages like this, is the amount of adults the book that has really touched. So they might have bought it with the aim of reading it alongside their child, but the messages are in terms of, oh my goodness, this was me, that was my experience at school, I think can only be a positive that people are having that level of awareness and and reflection, like you've already mentioned, so that they can take that into how they parent and how they engage with shame in their child. Um, and it's it's a book that can be revisited depending on if the child's had a bad day at school or something tricky's happened. It I would say it's not something that you just read once and then it's done. It's something that you can step in and out of, revisit. You'll probably draw on different elements of it at different times. If that was, if you were Jake, what would you need us to do in that situation? Have you ever felt like that? There's lots of sort of gentle conversations that can come from it, um, which I think can only be a positive.

Colby:

And there's a companion book that's come out subsequently. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Vicki:

So, for those that wanted it, we wanted to sort of put Lisa's sort of shame containment theory in more detail. So, as I say, parents, adults, teachers, social workers, whoever can really understand the theory and how, as I say, because it's it's simplified, isn't it, in Jake and the Shame Mama in the storybook. So we wanted to give them the more detailed version in the guidebook, looking at how it relates, asking adults to pause and reflect on their own experience of shame growing up, both as a child and how that impacts them now. We wanted to talk about the um how it's experienced for sort of in education, um for care experienced young people, because there are slightly different experiences depending on on your background and and what you're experiencing. So, as I say, it was it was to go alongside, and we've had really positive feedback from that. Um, and now Lisa's been going into local authorities, which again is fantastic. The social workers are embracing it, they want to hear. And I think what's fantastic is it changes, or I hope, and I'm starting to see it already sitting on adoption panels, it changes how social workers are writing their assessments because they're shame-informed, they're not as much anyway, using shaming blaming language, they're seeing these behaviours for what they are, protective survival behaviours, um, which is fantastic because, as I say, it those that bit of information is what will be shared with the child moving forwards. And if it isn't full of judgment and assumptions and and blame and shame, again, it's I think it can only be a positive. So, yeah, we're hoping to continue to sort of spread the word um and just continue those conversations on all different levels, both as I say, with parents, teachers, social workers, therapists, and just individuals, wanting everybody to look at their own shame.

Colby:

Yeah, yeah. Or at least consider reflect on their own experience. Yeah, yeah. And with with shown containment therapy theory being a kind of a framework, a guiding framework for doing that. Yeah. Um I was thinking while you were talking about child protection and how confronting it might be and uh but also potentially paradigm shifting to for uh statutory social workers to be um practicing approaching the work uh with shame containment theory as a as a not not the only, but as uh an important guiding framework. Um for example, when um when our children are removed because they're unsafe at home, parents rarely present better. Why is that? Well, it's it could be that they've always been scoundrels, but I I I suspect that it's it's not often necessarily that. It's I think it's probably got more to do with the with the experience and how of of having of child removal and um and the sense the way that's processed uh both unconsciously and and consciously for them and and how it's expressed in the uh problematic contain uh showing containment strategies.

Vicki:

Oh, absolutely, and as I say, for me the assessments that I've read that where I can tell without knowing that the social workers have had leases training has a huge impact because you just view and read about the behavior so differently. You don't see the language changes from that parent failed to that parent, given their circumstances, really struggled and used alcohol to manage to manage their feelings of shame of not being a good enough parent and not being able to keep you safe. Like it very much changes how it words, how it's written, rather than, as I say, it being about blame or judgment.

Colby:

Yeah. I think it's a really good addition to uh the knowledge frameworks that are out there, and and my most of my work experience over the past 30 years has been interfacing with child protection out-of-home care adoption. And um I would say we we kind of had a good go at it with attachment theory. Um but but attachment theory, at least as it has been incorporated into practice in child protection spaces, um has been inadequate in terms of uh I think in terms of um I'm not saying attachment theory per se is inadequate. It's been inadequate in uh encouraging practitioners in the space to think about think deeply about the experience of uh birth parents and birth families and why the th things happen that that that do happen and and necessitate a safety intervention. Um and also it's kind of i it's been misused in the sense that attachment theory has been used as a as a reason for removing children and a reason for persisting with trying to settle them in a family-based foster placement, for example, even though they may have had twenty of those that have broken down. I think so. I think um there is definitely a place to um to say, well, you know, attachment theory, for example, is really important, as are other theoretical traditions and orientations, but there is a place to re for a theory that really gets to the nub of it. Because I think I believe that sort of worth and and adequacy are really at the heart of all human motivation and and the desire to be perceived to be a person of worth and to be an adequate an adequate person. Yeah. Um and if shame people talk about the antidotes to shame. What what are the antidotes to shame? Love respect and connection, isn't it? I think yeah, yeah, yeah. So connect that's where and yeah, that's where we circle back to attachment and uh I mean the parts of attachment that I'm particularly into I'm all interested in all of it, but uh what I really emphasize is to peep for people to consider w internal working models or schema, or as I call them, attachment representations, those beliefs about our worth, about the worth of others and about safety in the world. And I think um if shame containment theory is one of those um uh theories that will be influential in this space, then um then that's great. Because I I do think we need to get better at turning our mind to what's going on in the experience of a person and a child. Well, um I feel like we've covered all the areas that that I wanted to talk about, and hopefully um I'll hold you responsible if anyone says that I talk too much in this podcast because you asked me a question, no. Oh dear. I think we're both chatters. I think a lot of the people I speak to are chatters, and uh and that and so that and that's fine. And I I like I like a good chat. So look, I wonder if was there any final word that you put maybe to professional sector professionals, psychotherapists, or even to parents that you would like uh to make to express?

Vicki:

I guess I'd just invite people to to develop their their understanding of shame, whether that be through sort of buying the book or through just going away and reading, because there's lots of stuff online that um Lisa Etherson has put out there for people to read to really familiarise yourself with it. And I know we often use the buzz phrase, don't we, of being trauma-informed. And I'd ask people to to reflect and think about are you truly trauma-informed if you're not working and acknowledging shame in that?

Colby:

And being shame informed. Exactly. Yeah, and just a plug for the for podcast number five with Lisa Etherson. If you haven't listened to it already, I'll include a link back to it in um in the description for this podcast. Well, listen, Vicky, it's been a pleasure to have you on. It's getting on a bit in the evening for you. It was um, well, at least, you know, from in terms of my bedtime, I couldn't I couldn't record a podcast at eight o'clock, uh 8 30 in the evening onwards. Um, and uh yeah, um it is the day's marching on here. So um we'll we'll wrap it up there. Thank you again for agreeing to be. On the Secure Start podcast.

Vicki:

Thank you ever so much for giving me the opportunity to talk about Jake and his Sheyman.

Colby:

You're welcome.

Vicki:

Thank you.

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Colby Pearce

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