#51: Leaving Care In Germany And Why Support Drops Away, with Tanja Abou

Turning 16 should not feel like a countdown to being on your own. Turning 18 should not require a letter proving you deserve a roof over your head. I sit down with German social worker, researcher, and care leaver Tanja Abu to unpack how leaving care really works in Germany and why the systems designed to build “independence” can end up creating pressure, instability, and loneliness instead.

We talk about what makes Germany distinct, including the fact that residential care and group homes are the most common placements, and how that shapes public perceptions compared with foster-care-heavy systems. Tanja walks us through recent legislative changes, including extended aftercare and the long fight to stop forcing young people in care to hand over most of their income to the state. We also name what too often sits behind the data: classism, structural inequality, and how poverty can drive families into welfare involvement while wealth buys privacy and options.

From there we get practical about transition points. Tanja describes Germany’s “two cliff edges”, the push to semi-independent living at 16 and the high-stakes jump at 18, and why checklist-based assessments of readiness miss the real determinants of long-term stability: trusted relationships, belonging, and mental health support that does not punish you for needing it. We also dig into care leaver self-organisation, global community building, and the difference between genuine participation and tokenism, including why lived experience expertise must be paid and respected rather than mined for emotional impact.

If you care about leaving care policy, residential care practice, trauma-informed support, or care leaver advocacy, this conversation offers both challenge and clarity. Subscribe to Secure Start, share this episode with someone in child and youth welfare, and leave us a review with your biggest takeaway or question.

Tanja's Bio:

Tanja Abou is a German social worker, researcher, author, and social justice educator whose work focuses on classism, intersectionality, and structural inequality. She identifies as a queer “poverty-class academic” and brings together academic research, lived experience, and political education.

Tanja works at the University of Hildesheim on the CLS – Care Leaver Statistics project, the first longitudinal study on young people transitioning out of residential and foster care. Alongside her research, she teaches and facilitates workshops on anti-classism, and is a founding member of the Institute for Classism Research.

Tanja’s background includes years of practice in Berlin’s youth welfare system and training as a systemic therapist. She is the author of Classism in the Education System, a critique of structural barriers and the stigmatization of poverty in education.

Beyond academia and activism, Tanja also works creatively as a children’s book author (including Starship Cosinus), comics artist, and occasionally as a DJ.

Links:

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheSecureStartPodcast
Podcast Blog Site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.com/

Disclaimer: Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Finally, all references to case examples are anonymised to the extent that the actual case could not be identified, or are fictional but based on real-life examples for illustrative purposes.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

Colby 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. Brought to you by the Secure Start Aura apps supporting trauma-informed care and practice at home and in school.

Tanja 0:17

I think this is important to understand that if you say in Germany I lived in a group home, that's like the main setting that young people and cat live in. But we we have the the same like challenges as other young people globally that um we have multiple placements sometimes instability, but in Germany I would say there's two cliff edges. The standards that are set for young people in care are so much higher than for their peers. Like what made you grow up? Like it was not the first meal that you cooked maybe at the age of 25, but um it was knowing that someone was there for you. Like in in your heart, like you you approach them as children and like you you treat them not and I don't mean patronizing but with the the empathy and compassion that a young person would need. I I sometimes wonder why it is so hard to imagine imagine for people um that the things that are good for themselves are good for young people and care as well. It's like talking about your experience and realizing this is a collective experience is um not only healing but very powerful. And for me, like poverty prevention would be welfare prevention. This was the moment where the room went really quiet, like when this young person spoke from their heart and their experience was like, yeah, then pay them. At least pay them. If you make them a prop, at least pay them accordingly.

Meet Tania Abou And Her Work

Colby 2:23

Welcome to the Secure Start Podcast. I'm Colby Pierce, and joining me for this episode is a leading member of the Global Care Leavers community. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I come to you from, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Kaurna people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Tania Abou. Tanja is a German social worker, researcher, author, and social justice educator whose work focuses on classism, intersectionality, and structural inequality. She identifies as a queer poverty class academic and brings together academic research, lived experience and political education. Tanja works at the University of Hildesheim on the Care Lever Statistics Project, the first longitudinal study of young people transitioning out of residential and foster care. Alongside her research, she teaches and facilitates workshops on anti-classism and is a founding member of the Institute for Classism Research. Tanja's background includes years of practice in Berlin's youth welfare system and training as a systemic therapist. She is the author of Classism in the Education System, a critique of structural barriers, and the stigmatization of poverty in education. Beyond academia and activism, Tanj0a also works creatively as a children's book author, comics artist, and occasionally as a DJ. So Tanja, it's really good to have you here very early at your end on the Secure Star podcast. Welcome.

Tanja 4:40

Thank you for having me at 7 a.m. in the morning. My time.

Colby 4:45

Yes, of course, you're in Germany and uh and I'm in South Australia. So we're seven and a half hours apart, and uh you've graciously agreed to come on at this early hour on a public holiday of all days as well.

Tanja 5:01

On a public holiday, yeah.

Colby 5:03

Yeah, yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about you and uh the work that you do.

Tanja 5:10

Yes, so my name is Tanja Abou. I um I start from like from now and then I go back. Um, so I'm a research fellow at the University of Hildesheim, and I work in the first um longitudinal study on leaving care, like the first that is not concentrated on one uh institution, but on like the whole of Germany and um foster families as well as residential care. And uh before that I was a social worker for nearly 10 years. I also ran a bar at some point, um, like a collective bar. Um I'm I'm like very much from um this like circle of people who like start self-organized projects. And um I've been an activist

From Practice To Research And Activism

Tanja 6:10

for I would say all my life in all different kinds of fields, but it like since the mid 2010s. Um when I I would say I I I always spoke very openly about being a care lever, like back then you didn't use that word, but this is like the one that like globally has um like developed into the term that everybody uses. Not everybody, um, but like a lot of people like use the term care leaver now. And um I joined a project with other carelivers and and then realized like how little um like in in research and any kind of discourse the voices of the people who have been in the system themselves are represented. So um yeah, since then I have been also an activist and locally and globally organized and connected to other carelivers. Yes that's me in in a nutshell.

Colby 7:26

Yes, and of course, I met you a couple of months ago um on a on a Zoom call with um a number of uh members of the the global care leavers community community, yeah. Yeah, GCLC. GCLC, that's it. And uh um you're you'll be the third member of that that group that's been on the podcast after Serja and Nimu from India and Sri Lanka, respectively.

Tanja 7:57

Yeah, which are the two of three members that I met in person actually. Yes. We um like a few years ago, three years ago, two years ago, we were in split together at the FITSA conference. Yeah.

Colby 8:12

Yeah, yeah. And I I like what you were saying, talking about self-starting, and uh of course, um Serja in particular is very much involved in in uh a program that exists in India through Udayan Care to um or supported by Udayan Care to assist care leavers to develop ideas into uh enterprises or uh endeavors as such, um, which uh is remarkable really.

Tanja 8:43

Yeah, I mean Idayan is like super special, like um in in terms of like really accompanying the young people that were in care for a really long time and giving them job opportunities and education. And I mean I've known Sogia since five years now, more or less, and like I mean, she turned into this like speaker and um like the speaker person, and it's just wonderful to see everybody growing from that community, yeah. And um I mean we've we've worked together, like not all people in the group, but we've worked together since 2020. There was the um global carelivers convention that was supposed to be held in India, and there were like different players organizing that event, which were um Fietse Germany and the University of Hildesheim, no Fietse Um Oh Kinder Perspektive, which is um Fietse in the Netherlands, and the University of Hildesheim, you die in Edwin Group, I forgot, but um I hope nobody um kills me for that, but um yeah, like this was supposed to be held in India, but because of uh COVID it was turned into an online conference, and ever since then, like we started the Global Calivus Community WhatsApp group, we had um an online community, like some some kind of exchange board, and we've been like on and off with different kind of modes of organizing. Like we had a secretary for a while, and then we decided because this position kind of fluctuated over the years without us being in control of the position of the the secretary for the global care leavers community, and then we decided that we as the carelivers will form a core group and which will be like the steering group of the global carelivers community. And since in our respective countries we're all very active and also connected to the local communities, and we have no funding, and all like we are like most of us are caregivers, like 24-7, and sometimes I have to step back and be like, okay, let's do some gardening, because otherwise I'll be drained from all the activism, and it's my job. And a lot of people who are my close friends are caregivers, and I love being in that community, but from time to time it's like okay, let's step back. And um, so

Building The Global Care Leavers Community

Tanja 12:00

sometimes we have times where we meet very frequently, and like Soja is like the the one who's like always pushing, like who will be the one to send a message let's hey, let's connect, let's connect. And um, yeah, but we've been a group, and I think in the last meeting that we had, we said that this group still exists, and that we still do this kind of work while we're locally organizing, but also like keeping an eye on the global calibus community is incredible in itself, and we are still working towards becoming an independent organization with funding, but we will get to that maybe in five to ten years.

Colby 12:54

Well, let's hope you do, and and maybe not even um that far away. It is remarkable to hear about the way you're organizing together internationally at the ri the the representation. I remember um we had someone from the Horn of Africa on that call a few uh a couple of months ago as well, and I can't remember where the last, but there was five of us, I think. There was a another person, but apologies to that person. I do remember them, I just can't place where they where they were in the world. Um we talked a lot in that conversation about how early it was for the person in Africa for everyone, that's why it was for everyone. Yes, we're on Indian time. We were on Indian time for that call. Yeah, yeah.

Tanja 13:44

Yeah. So um always on Indian time for these calls. I have to I I have to claim German time at some point.

Colby 13:54

Yes, well, of course, they're five hours behind me, so this would be a morning meeting uh with with uh Serja and probably Nimu as well. Um I I I want to get on to talking about um the about care leavers and care leavers in Germany. Um, but I'm I think people who are listening to this pot to this podcast are but going to be primarily English speaking and won't really know much about the out-of-home care system in Germany. And I I wonder if you might uh tell us a little bit about what that look what the out-of-home care system looks like in Germany.

Tanja 14:37

Um yeah, it's actually for young like young the number of young people in care um is not that high. It's like around 120,000. Like if you live in a big country um as Germany, is actually quite a little number of young people. And I think what I had to understand talking to um other people from the global north, and I think um it's it's it's a bit wild because um in the global south it's way more common that young people in care are in residential groups or group homes, and um which is this the same for Germany, so it's way more common to be in um residential care, like in group homes or um like smaller like like not like foster families, and like foster families are the the minority um amongst like the the um the setting in Germany and I think this is something that that took me a while to understand because when I came to um I w I went to um the US and Canada um a few years ago when I started working at the University of Hildesheim, um which is uh wild in itself, that you know you you meet other researchers in the field and you travel the world just to sit down with other people, have a cup of tea, and talk about leaving care research is so exciting. Okay, but um understanding that for instance in the US, like they try to place young people within the communities where they came from. Like, first of all, they look if there are family members, community members, and uh putting or placing young people in in group homes is kind of last resort.

Colby 17:00

Yes.

Tanja 17:01

And and they told me that um if you're in a group home, you are kind of considered as um I do not like stigmatizing language, but I just repeated at that point like that you you're kind of considered like a special case or difficult. And I think this is important to understand that if you say um in Germany I lived in a group home, that's like the main setting that young people and cat live in. And um, yeah, I mean there's like a long history of changes in legislation, um, like from, and I think the main changes have been from the um oh, translation, um Jugendwohlfahrtsgesetz, like the Youth Welfare Code from the Um Children and Youth Welfare Act, and now it's the Children Youth Support Act, and I think there's like fine lines in the wording because before it was um focused on like help, and now it's focused on support, and the last changes um were made in 2021, and a lot of good things have actually put in place, like aftercare support, and the um like the like we had a re some really really big achievements in the legislation in Germany, like um we have the come back option, which means that if you left care theoretically, and we were speaking theoretically and like law-wise, you would have the the possibility to go back to um the youth welfare services and say, Hey, I um I actually failed, can I come back? Like other which is based on the idea that other young people who leave their homes or like their assigned grown-ups, um like they can come back to like family support or other settings, and this is to kind of imitate that situation, but I'm saying like this is a theoretical um like new regulation because like the the local municipalities have to act on the law, so like there is a nationwide law, but it like really depends on like your your local little governments to put the rights that young people have in place, and uh one thing that I could actually shock people with like I had um carelavers from the UK um that it was an achievement, and I'm putting that in quotation marks, that young people in care did not have to give a part of their income to the state if they had an income. So um for a really long time it was in the law that young people in care who earned money had to pay 75% of that income back to the state, and that was based on the logic or in the legislation that um like everybody had to contribute to the care system who was using it, so the parents had to pay their share, and so the kids as well, and we argued for years that um this is so not only unfair, but it's unsinkable. Like you would not ask your kid to give you like 75% of their income, and you would encourage young people to take up jobs and like get used to um having like a work rhythm in their life, and then it this is completely discouraged discouraging, and so it was actually a major achievement that young people in care did not have to pay for their placements or had to like contribute with their income to their placements.

Colby 21:48

Wow. So that that was a major uh achievement of the the twenty twenty one changes. Um that young people uh There's so much in what you're saying there. I uh you said I think also that parents

How Out Of Home Care Works

Colby 22:05

also have to contribute if their children are in state care or at least they had to up until that point.

Tanja 22:13

Yeah.

Colby 22:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Tanja 22:16

So I mean the the the par like the parents depending on their income. And I mean I think that's something that is true globally, that mostly like economically disadvantaged young people are in care. I don't say that there aren't like young people from more affluent families, but um I from my experience or from what I see and know, um like people who have money have other solutions. Like maybe they send their kids to boarding schools if so I actually had a colleague that I had really, really interesting conversations about this because she was sent to boarding school when like she hit puberty, and then like there were fights with the parents, and then like she she went to boarding school, which was their solution for like not functioning well as a family or not being well in touch. And I would really like to see some research on that because there's like this huge stigma on young people and care that like we're all from like dysfunctioning poor families, and which it's is structurally true-ish, but it's because rich families can afford to keep these kind of things private, and it doesn't mean that there aren't problems in in rich or families who had easy access to formal ac education. And so I think there's really a disbalance in in representation that young people from families who are already in need um are overrepresented in the care system.

Colby 24:33

Yeah, yeah. And and I've had a previous guest, well previous guests talk about poverty as being um addressing poverty as being one of the um most powerful, potentially most powerful uh preventive measures against um child maltreatment and children uh ending up in out-of-home care. So there is definitely there is definitely a socioeconomic element to it. But I think uh in a previous lifetime I was a researcher also, and uh yeah, it's spoken like a I was thinking spoken like a true researcher to look beyond what the official account and the the the official figures represent that yeah absolutely if people have means then they have up they have options other than um and and on that on that using that word option you you refer to the the stigma I guess outside of Germany, perhaps in in in the more English speaking West, uh about being in residential care and residential care being seen as an option of last resort. And um it's not seen by everyone as that, of course, and and there are moves afoot, including through with through this podcast to change some the rhetoric around residential care.

Tanja 26:01

But if it's not the option of last resort, and if it's the primary uh modality of care in Germany, uh what would you say it it looks like uh in Germany, ri residential care for um yeah, I would say I mean it's a very diverse um experience, like that's not like single care experience. And I'm I mean for some young people it means and it was the same for me that um to experience like safety and stability and like for the first time maybe in their lives, and also because and it's also a class aspect because um like you are not put in one room with like your three, four siblings, like you have space, you have um a fridge that full is full of food, and like it's like very I mean it is a middle class oriented system, so the standards that are set um are very middle class, and it can be also like kind of a shock to um like if you come from um like a materially and like space deprived um setting, it can be a culture shock in a way, and um but we we have the the same like challenges as other young people globally that um we have multiple placements sometimes instability, um like we have a lack of places, and um like there's sometimes a lack of participation, like even though by law and like there's always like what is theoretically the law, like by law you have to be asked, there is the right to like choose your placement theoretically, there is the right to choose um the person who becomes like your primary caseworker, but there's a lack of resources, there's a lack of places, and there's um a lack of um people who work in the system. It's like the German words like Fachkräftemangel is like um a lack of qualified personal who like who work in who would work in the system and it's become um actually a huge crisis and it it always ends with um being like carried out on the backs of the young people because they live in the group homes with like one carer who um has to take care of six people from different age groups who probably parentifies the older kids to take care of the younger because this is a way of organizing the the lack of resources from this from the system. And um like I I'm I'm not saying that people are not doing their work well, but the systemic um lack of qualified people, the lack of resources that are put in the child and youth welfare system, and actually, right now we're having a huge discussion of um cutting funds for our child and youth welfare. Like we have the least popular chancellor ever in history in Germany who is um a rich billionaire who only thinks from his class and from his possibilities, and for him, it's unimaginable like the the lack of resources that young people in care have, or also like during the life course that um they have no safety net to fall back onto. And um, this is true like globally and locally, like when we talk about the um care system in my like national groups, but also internationally, like there is a dread for um before your 18th birthday, which you know, like usually you would be excited if you turn 18 that now you're a grown-up, and actually there's like two um like cliff edges, like there's sometimes it's called like the cliff edge, your 18th birthday. But in Germany, I would say there's two cliff edges because from the age of 16 on, you're very much pushed to go live on your own, and I'm putting that in quotation marks as well. Um, because like from group home, um they will ask you to live in your own flat and have a very limited budget where you buy all your stuff yourself. Um, you don't have um you usually have a social worker who's assigned a certain amount of numbers, but you're not 24-7 like uh supervised anymore. Which feels if you're 16 and somebody tells you here, I give you money, I give you flat, and I give you a person who comes like twice or three times a week. It sounds very like it is tempting. Like it was the same for me, like when I and that this has not changed for decades that 16 is the age where they will start to push

Law Changes And The Income Grab

Tanja 32:40

you like into a cheaper mode of um of care. And then um which is like the side like of okay, I do not have to live in the group home, I do not have to deal with all the other people, I do not have to deal with the fluctuation, I do not have to be worried about my caretaker who is like overwhelmed and swamped with work all the time. So it is tempting, but um, and I don't say that or I'm a bit tired to always ask people like what would you do if this was your child? But like this this kind of like emotionalizing and pulling at heart strings kind of questions that we always ask people. But this is, I mean, it is wild for me that a person who has like a 16-year-old child, and if the the young person and they are still children, if they would say, Oh, okay, mom, dad, I'm going to move out like in the middle of my education, and yeah, just give me 500 bucks um a month and I'll I'll check in with you like twice a week, and every every parent in their mind would say, Look, I love you, I raised you, and I'll raise you, or I go on raising you until you finished your school, or until you have stable income, until I know you can afford this, and until like we have trained a few things, and for young kids in care, it's from 16 you're like in some kind of exhibirated grown-up boot camp because you're like, here's your money, here's like be self-organized, be independent, and it's become buzzwords, and like and then at 18. Um, I mean, in Germany, we are in the privileged um situation that there is extended support after 18, but you have to write a letter to the child welfare services in which areas, as a young person, 18, maybe like finishing high school, like you you have to write a letter. You know, you you don't write a letter on your 18th birthday to your parent why you still have a right to have a roof over your head. And like the the standards that are set for young people in care are so much higher than for their peers. And the the average age um of young people moving out of their homes in Germany is 24.5 or 25, like something somewhere around that age. And for young people and CAD from the age of 16 on, they have to prove that they can cook for themselves, handle money, and there are these kinds of and um like very instrumentalized checklists what people um will use to mark you as independent. It's like yeah, gets up in the morning to go to school or to like some kind of training, um, yeah, to um yeah, can cook for themselves, has a tanner left at the end of the month. Like these kind of and like I actually when I was working in in the system, um one of my colleagues was like brought in one of those lists. They they they exist, they're like checklists, like you you really like check boxes, and none of them has to do anything with how emotionally stable a person is, how well connected they are to a community. It is there's no question about loneliness, which has like increased immensely, especially during COVID. And um, like the the these kind of like questions of well-being, questions of um like are you do you have do you have a sense of having a place in the world? Are you well? Like the kind of interest that I would have in a person that I love and care for, which care should be, but then she came in with these lists, and I had a I had a laughing fit. Like I I took it and I really I started laughing hysterically, and I could not explain to her why it was so absurd for me because for her it was like the revelation of like having a tool to measure um if a young person had improved, and it's like and I was always like they're young people, they're they're basically like crazy little people pushing your boundaries who like poke at every like little hole that they see in you, and your job as a grown-up is be the stable one, be a role model, and like show them that you stick around no matter what they do. This is like the job of a teenager. It's it's it is, and um I could not make myself understood in that setting, like that I thought this was an absolutely useless tool if the young person themselves did not want to use it for like becoming self-organized, but as a person with a lot of power from the system, going in there was a list and being like, okay, so you can wash your clothes, check, you can cook for yourself, check, you can buy groceries, check. It's like what what like what made you grow up? Like it was not the first meal that you cooked, maybe at the age of 25, but um it was knowing that someone was there for you, and it's something that it uh has been in my mind a lot in my own practice over a long period of time.

Colby 40:06

I think the tension you're making is the difference between can they and will they? Can they and will they? So it can they do these things, yes. Will they do those these things? Maybe, but that would depend on some of those other things that you said. That would depend on whether they um have feel like they can access supports, that they have a support structure around them that they can believe in, people that will be there for them. It depends on individual variables like do I see myself as um worthy of those supports? As uh do I do I see others as being trustworthy and reliable? Um

Classism And Poverty Behind The Numbers

Colby 40:56

the there you're talking, I think, the difference between and the other way I talk about it is in terms of motivation. Like some people will often they can do something, but will they do it? Well, no, they won't necessarily because their motivation, then they're not necessarily motivated to do those things. Their motivation is uh about resolving, as you say, other personal issues like loneliness and connection and uh um and I think those sorts of into inner factors have you know really have the potential, and I've seen it in my own work of um sending things off the rails, so to speak. Yeah. So the lonely the lonely 16-year-old in the set in the setting that you're talking about, can they wash their clothes, can they cook a meal, can they do all yes. What will they do? The first thing they'll do is they'll they'll try to re recreate that experience of connection of of of being in a group home. So they'll have they'll invite people into their home who um may or may not be a good influence, and um and and so you know, so so it rolls out from there. So I'm I'm totally with what what you're saying that it is a it's pr preposterous, is another word we would use. It's a pro it's preposterous to suggest that um that young people e you know, even below you know below pick a number, 20, 22, 24, it it depends on their upbringing, it depends on the family environment, it depends on so many different things, their uh their maturity.

Tanja 42:45

No, sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, but the biggest contradiction is that the more boxes people check on these young people, the less support they get. So it's as soon as and and that's what I said, like at 18 you write the letter, and every and like you have um like this conference every like in the beginning it's like every year when you're still like a minor, and they they like they increase um the frequency the older you get, so there's a lot of pressure, and like you always have to articulate what you're not capable of yet and how you're going to achieve it. And like this is um and and then they do like every six months and then every three months, and you know, like you're a young person, you know, like the um your placement, the roof over your head depends on performing well in these like years, um Welfare conferences sometimes was like you're a caseworker, um, you're a social worker, if you're under 18, um, a parent is invited, if you're lucky they don't participate, but um like you you have a very artificial setting where you as the young person have to like manage um like your your life or present yourself as a manager of your life and in a very um and and I would say it's like inhumane, like it's it's it's not it's not fair to a young person who is in that system, and then at the age of 18, like if you check all these boxes from these absurd papers, um the child protective services will say, Okay, now you're independent enough to be without support from the system, and having a roof over your head, and um to say, okay, but if you kick me out now, I will fail. Are not no reasons to stay in the system. There always has to be some kind of deficit, and that makes it like very deficit-oriented, and like what is the signal to young people and care um in Germany is okay, the better you function, the less support you get. So um, and there's like a very thin line to walk on. If you're too problematic, you are considered not cooperative, and you're being kicked out. So, like there's like this very thin line of being like considered cooperative, nice enough, worthy of support, and still needy enough to be worthy of that support, and like it's yeah, it's it's like very um, I think it's a draining for a young person. And if you have social workers who jump on these narratives of the not complying young person or the oh so independent person who became resilient because they had to, um, like you actually need social workers who are capable and you need a system that supports these social workers so they don't burn out to look behind these like very technocratic, like kind of goals they set with the young people.

Colby 47:07

Yeah. I think um I'm wondering about you know what the the preferred way of of doing it would be, or uh particularly what your thoughts are. I have some thoughts uh about that and I was in my head that I was pausing then because I was thinking, do I just say what I think should happen? And no, I need I have Tanja on here. Um we love we'd all I would and I'm sure the listeners would love to hear from hear about what you how you think it should look at 16 and 18 for young people in Germany who are in care.

Tanja 47:48

Like first of all, they should be treated as young people and actually the children that they are, and like of course, you never ever in your life tell a teenager you're still a child. Like this is you know, this is like you you approach that with like the dignity and respect a 16-year-old needs in their very grown-up mind, but um like in in your heart, like you you approach them as children, and like you you treat them not and I don't mean patronizing, but with the the empathy and compassion that a young person would need. And um, and that that makes it so hard, I think, also for people who work the system that you know that there is this lack of funding, and they are cutting at the most vulnerable populations first. They do not tax the rich, they cut any kind of funding, like any kind of scrap that they

Group Homes And The Staffing Crisis

Tanja 49:10

gave to our marginalized populations, and um like I I sometimes wonder why it is so hard to imagine imagine for people um that the things that are good for themselves are good for young people and care as well, like like stable long-term relationships and um like genuine participation in um what like what happens with your life and to you and and to you in instead of like symbolic or like um fake participation, um and like continuity instead of multiple placements. Um like these are like sometimes I'm I'm talking to people and and like use use your common sense, like use like what would you consider like a normal childhood and put that kind of like not even like excellent, but normal childhood, like and you know, like give young people access to mental health support support. And um, I was actually there's this um organization called the global no the National Leaving Care Benchmarking Forum in in the UK, and we were invited as like research team and self-organizations for a big celebration where Princess Anne actually showed up, and um who has a voice like I have now, like a little horse, and um like they do um mental health education with the young people and the way the members of the the National Leaving Care Benchmarking Forum talked about um like themselves, like the the the the kind of self-realization that they had about okay this is this and that kind of mechanism, and what I need now is um like a room that is a bit more quiet, and they they actually like had a room where you could like go into where you had like earmuffs and or earplugs and you had skills everywhere, like these things you could pop or things to fiddle with, some some pen and paper, so you could just draw some stuff, and and I was like, oh MG, like if I had had these tools as a 16-year-old, if I would have known things about myself that these young people know, it would have like skipped me like a great deal of sorrow, and also the people around me, like you know, because um if you don't know, if you do not get good mental health support and education, there's so many things that you find out like little by little. And like we had a um, we published an article with six care leavers, and um because there is like this thin line of being um like either you have to function very well or you consider it like difficult, and if you're considered too difficult, they will put you like in closed institutions or in like psychiatric um institutions, and um when while we talked, we realized that a lot of us did not start therapy very late in our life because we we thought that going to therapy would mark us as the difficult ones. And so um like this was this is so this is also like very um like it baffles me also in research that these kind of topics are not um really looked into, like it's always like focused on like housing, education, finances, sometimes relationships, and there's like it's repeated over and over and over again, but um for instance the the mental health effects of systemic pressure, and I really hope that some researchers are listening to the podcast and write some research project because I think there have to be more um research that is inspired by actually like people who lived the system. And this is this was something I always um I I sometimes told people that I was always afraid to start therapy because I saw young people from my group home disappearing and not coming back when they were considered too difficult. And just and this is why I valued these um carelaver spaces so much and the self-organizations, because like any empowerment space of like any um marginalized group, talking about your experience and realizing this is a collective experience is um not only healing but very powerful because then you can name the the the lack of support in the system and what actually like an yeah a system that functions on authority and not on co-production is um doing to your life. And um there's oh there's actually um another change in legislation that I forgot that um uh self-organizations have to be supported by the the residential care facilities, by youth welfare services. So in theory, and maybe we have to go down another 10 years until this legislation has to has been put into effect actually, but um this was also an achievement of the um self-organizations who pushed into the legislation that young people have to have the spaces where they self-organize. And a lot of people sometimes see self-organizing as a threat to their authority, which is a problem in itself, because why are you scared of young people creating stable um connections that will carry them longer than any kind of like professional in access, yeah, professional support? Um but like from my experience, it like carers and professionals and also like other people in the system see self-organizations as something that is threatening. Um, but I think it's absolutely necessary to balance out the power imbalance

The Push To Move Out At 16

Tanja 57:35

that there is. And um, yeah, I think that was also like a major achievement, and we have to also like get into the young people's minds that self-organizing is not being the difficult one sometimes.

Colby 57:50

Yeah, it's almost I mean, there's so many parallels in what you're saying. So um um diffic there's and this I think is a problem, you know, wherever I've spoken to people, including you know from around the world and in my own local jurisdiction, is this this an inordinate focus on um behaviors of concern and uh the the so-called uh you said was describing it as the so-called difficult ones, the ones that are presenting with with um behaviors that that challenge us. And uh that's on the one hand, and we and we think we people or systems try to turn their mind to how do we how do we deal with, deal effectively with those behaviours of concern. And there's also an inordinate focus on as you were talking a little bit ago, about about being able to demonstrate on skills development and being able to demonstrate skills, yeah. And I think in and this is a bit l what I was trying to say earlier, the there's not enough consideration of what lies beneath all that anywhere. Yeah, so you know, like so if you don't consider what lies beneath, then you you can end up with can children do something? Yes, will they do it? Maybe not, you know, that can be problematic. Also, you can end up with with with um situations where children's own feeling of disenfranchisement, of worthlessness, of um uh um um inability to trust and make uh in relationships and make and maintain stable ones is just perpetuated by giving getting by people who only respond to the behaviors that they're presenting with and not look beneath it. So I think and you said something which is very simple, very, very simple, but also very powerful, which is um we need to see them as children. Not not little adults, and not to tell them, not to tell them, and not but not but not tell them that and in interestingly, in my own jurisdiction, one of the things that I've noticed is that children our young people can't wait, by and large, can't wait to not have the government running their lives anymore. So they they it can be very tricky to keep them involved in in support service provision if they are really uh dissatisfied with um how the government has has uh run their life growing up. But so I think treat seeing them as as as they are as children, the again we're almost getting back to first principles, it's seeing them as they are, not what they can do or show that they can do, or not necessarily the behaviors that they're predominantly presenting or that they're presenting from time to time. And you also highlighted a very interesting paradox in there, which is that as I heard it, that we have a very overbearing system, controlling system. Like there's the uh a very powerful system that that is essentially saying to the ch to our young people we need you to be adults and to be self-determining and to you to get on and live your life without any without any power sharing there.

Tanja 1:01:40

Yeah. No, yeah, and and it's also um another paradox is that when you present yourself, and I'm not saying that you overcome all these hurdles, like if you present yourself as a person who overcame all these like adverse circumstances, you are celebrated, like you are celebrated as like the independent caliber, you are like the poster child of like look, it can work, and nobody asks like why did young people have to become independent, independent so early. Why did young people have to develop very grown-up skills very early? And another like the the meanest thing about this kind of celebration of like the ones who made it is that we as the carelavers, like we know how many young people did not make it, and that were maybe our best friends in the residential facility that we lived in. That was maybe our brother or sister who didn't make it, and it is it always comes with a sting, and I know that there's like like I can like put it in like very fancy words, like, yeah, there's survivor's guilt, but um, there's actually little to no research because everybody is so relieved that they have someone that they can, you know, like kind of soften their conscience with by saying, but you made it, you made it, and you know, like inside you're like, yeah, but there's so many people who didn't, and I should not be like this exception from the rule who um like yeah came from like adverse childhood like circumstances and fought her way through the education system, and then yeah, she was homeless, and then she at some point like went to university and now she's a researcher. I mean it's like the it's like some kind of like Hollywood like dream narrative that people like cling to, and there's also again like a thin line between like being really proud and being like I did that myself and not forgetting like where you came from and not like taking this kind of um praise as like the end of the story, but you know, like mirroring this kind of like admiration and saying like yeah, but what I had to do to like I lost so much time, energy, like that I shouldn't have shouldn't have had to lose was the if you call it potential, was the potential that I had, I should be like somewhere else. But um you're just being praised for surviving, yeah. And that it's like kind of like hunger games. This hunger game situation. Do you know you you get you get the reference?

Colby 1:05:41

Yes, I do. Yeah.

Tanja 1:05:42

Okay, okay. Yeah. I hope everybody

Turning 18 And Proving You Deserve Help

Tanja 1:05:45

else does. It's a dystopic like um teenage thing.

Colby 1:05:51

Yes, yeah, yeah. And the other thing that you mentioned a little uh earlier that I think is a theme that is going through this is is is cost. So you mentioned that if a person is able to able to demonstrate that they can do this, this, this, this, and this, then um we'll celebrate and lord that and uh because and that will cost us less. And when I say the authorities less, but they require less support. And part of maybe I'm I'm drawing too long a bow here, but I'm also thinking about what you were saying about this narrative around people who succeeded, the ones who who have done well, that is very sounds the way you describe it, very individualistic and as something that has come from within the person. And again, if you if you maintain a if you maintain a uh an idea, a discourse, that the ones who make it are the ones who had something within them. My concern is that that first suggests that some people don't when when they they clearly could. And secondly, it's like, well, it it's you know, they had it in them, so it's not about how much we funded support and services and service provision. It's just you know, some people have got it and some people uh have it. And maybe I'm drawing a bit of a sh a long bow here, but I I I think about it as well in terms of you know, in in uh English speaking western jurisdictions, this option of residential care or group home care has been the option of last resort, and it it's rather convenient um that it is seen in in that way. They will do um the authorities, notwithstanding that it is still expensive, will be reluctant to invest in support for children who are there, notwithstanding that they may be seen as the children who needed the option of last resort, they'll be reluctant to do to do that because um it costs a lot of money and it's and it's bad care or a bad circumstance for children to grow up in anyway. So I guess the point I'm making is that there's this theme of of cost and money that um if you grow up in in your own biological family and it's a relatively functional biological family, of course there's financial limitations. Of course there are, but you organize your finances on being around being able to provide as best you can for your children. And a system that either overtly or or unconsciously, uh consciously or unconsciously, is is looking for ways in which to absolve itself of the financial responsibility of child rearing is problematic to my ears.

Tanja 1:09:22

Yeah, that's an understatement. No, like I'm I'm completely with you, like the individualization of structural problems is um it is a huge problem. And for me, like poverty prevention would be welfare prevention, like if you would actually like give people um or or if we would live in like some kind of just or fair society where people could actually live from their jobs, and um like if I have a single mom who's like amongst the working poor who like works three jobs and still struggle to make ends meet, like ends meet, meet ends, ends meet, yeah. Ends meet, okay. English is not my first thing. Ends meet um to make ends meet. Um like it is not comparable to someone who grew up comfortably and um had access to like formal education, and there's like this um this working class writer, Dorothy Ellison, and she said, like people like you who grew up with like this this sense of having a place in the world cannot imagine that there are people like me who don't have that um entitlement, and I think it's like really um and that that's a problem of, and I mean I do not want to go too much into like politics and class politics, which is one major topic that I actually also focus on. But um, the people who are making the rules and the legislations um have no insights into the world of people who work 60 hours a week, try to give their children a good home, but still have no time and no actually no leisure time for themselves. And um like if jobs were paid better, like word work times were more limited, and there are um in Germany there's this idea of the um of an a general income like that is without um and I'm losing my words. Um that you have you do not have to work for it, and um that everybody has like this basic income.

Colby 1:12:32

Yeah, universal basic income.

Tanja 1:12:34

Thank you, that was the word, like like this idea of the universal basic income that

Why Checklists Miss The Point

Tanja 1:12:40

um is actually it is possible because with all the money that is put into the welfare system and the whole apparatus around it and all the jobs around like keeping this kind of um like patronizing and authoritarian structure up. Um, if you withdraw all this and give people like this universal basic income, um people would have more stability, but um and like sometimes like I'm um I'm just baffled like how much people cling to their power and money and do not work towards living in a society where people um are actually happy to live. And um, like I went to um Copenhagen when I was turning 17, um, and we did like this little bike tour, and there's in Copenhagen there's this little um part of the city, like this community which is called Christiania, and I don't know how it is today, but back then it was like this um a little community where like any kind of work that had to be done for the community was distributed amongst all the people who lived there, so the more um like the jobs that were more dirty, like everybody had to do them, like taking up the trash, like cleaning and and fruit, and everybody seemed like very happy and relaxed. Okay, it's also like the the part of the city where you can could buy weed back then, but taking that out, um, I was like, okay, there are models and ideas, and you know, I don't I do not want to live in some kind of like hippie fantasy, maybe, maybe I would, but um just to make lives a bit more reliable, stable, and like more easy for people who did not have like the who did not win like the birth lottery. And um so I mean it is kind it is kind of topic, but it is also in the topic because I sometimes wonder like if my family of origin had had the means to um actually lean back and to actually support um the whole family with all kinds of resources and not like you know this this um like being being fed and clean is not necessarily like being being taken care of, like to I'm and it's like speculative because I don't know what would have happened if I grew up in a family with like stable income and no fear at the end of the month, but um to to to know that this kind of model or these kind of ideas exist and um like maybe there would still be um foster care or residential care because there's all kinds of other problems, but um to like give it a go and try to prevent poverty first, um but from what I see and what I also said in the beginning is that they are cutting like the little scraps that they threw towards like marginalized communities and do not like tax rich people.

Colby 1:17:04

There's a lot I think in what you say, and um I think in particular the the experience of um those of communities that struggle, the experience of struggle is often not fully appreciated by policy makers, decision makers, um and so on. And I think if we tie that back to being a global care leaver voice, but also uh organizing and doing things in your own jurisdiction, it it really only emphasizes the need for the voice of people care experienced is another word that is or another term that is used now that I've noticed. But but your vo the voice any voice or the voice of the young people who have who are going through it or have gone through it, who've lived that life, is important as an understatement, but it it is important to fill in the gaps in what we know about what what we need to be putting into place to facilitate an ordinary life for our uh children and young people who have grown up in care. It's that it's that information that helps us understand if they they they can do it, will they do it? Probably not, why won't they do it? What what is it that the that uh means that they're not they're not going to do, or they may not be motivated to do or even able to do, they can do it, but can they do it consistently over time? It's it's that understanding what what is really their experience, what's really going on for them, and similarly those children who are seen as being incredibly problematic. I think we need I I think we need all and one of the things that I notice I I continue to see young people who I knew when they were in care as adults, um either it's continued or they've come back to me through my psychotherapy practice. And some of those young people they they did it really hard. Really, really hard growing up. And there's you know, life is still a real struggle for them, but their voice is just as valid as as any other uh young person who's come through the care system. I'd love to I'd love to I often turn my mind to how do we get their voice, their experience. I mean, I do what I can, but it, you know, I'm an abs I'm a p observer and a describer as such. I I wasn't there, I wasn't living for them. And I yeah, and I do I do, I just I think their voice is important, and I think another thing that you've said is that the the experience of community, that that community of voices is also very healing into you know beyond care, being with your peers, being with people who know what you've been through.

Tanja 1:20:30

Yeah. I mean I I hear what you're saying that you know like in in the the the the people who are made visible also like as like that's like also like the neurotarium at like the care leaders um are most often the ones who and I'm putting that in quotation marks

Mental Health Support Without Stigma

Tanja 1:20:55

like did well. Um but yeah, but in the self-organizations that I'm in and in the communities, um like there are also the people who are more quiet, who like are still struggling, who um are not considered like presentable. And this is also in quotation marks, and I think that's also kind of a problem because um of course, and like what I realized like being in a in a position of um speaking from uh like one point of uh like or one position in a very diverse and and large um community, um, is that it also creates um some kind of like desire to like be you are invited to the conferences, you are invited to come and speak, and and and best would be if you're still like younger and if you are very if if you can present your story and your narrative in a very touching and interesting way, and it's become some kind of I wouldn't say market, or maybe it is a market, but um, yeah, it is because sometimes when we get requests um as the Carelievers Association, it more feels like um like like uh one of those checkbook forms, you know, like oh it would be wonderful like if a young person could come to my university um seminar and like speak to the students, oh, and maybe talk about like their story because um that sticks most with the students. And I'm like, how what a what a continuation of exploitation is this? Like, if we are again instrumentalized, like for this kind of um yeah, like extraction, it's like come please you know come here and be inspirational. And um what actually like uh we had a conference in 2014, 15, I do not really remember, but um there were people invited from EPIC, which is um empowering people in care in Ireland. Yes, and um they said that they actually invited um state officials, like that they did not went to their like they did not go to their offices, but they invited them to come to their community center and sit down with them on the floor, eat pizza, and um make it more comfortable for the ones in the group who did not feel like they wanted to go through the um like excitement and pressure of like, oh now you're going to like this um powerful person's office or you're going to that conference, and it takes commitment and it takes um also a long-term, like it has to have a long-term perspective if you start working with um with a marginalized community. And um I I really like this is something that I I have recently, and there's also um like I I've um witnessed re recently a lot, and but there's also resistance because there are people who have been active for actually longer than I have been active, who actually write papers against like this kind of extractive mindset from also like people in like in the field who organize like conferences for practitioners and you know who who actually like tokenize communities, and um like they would not even like pay some kind of um I mean it doesn't have to be like the the the the biggest amount of money, but who who won't even like pay you for your time, like they would invite speakers and pay those other speakers according to their formal accusation, but lived experience is not valued the same while it is used to create like this um emotional moment. And I just recently read on LinkedIn like a post from a person who was like, This was the moment where the room went really quiet, like when this young person spoke from their heart and their experience was like, Yeah, then pay them, at least pay them if you make them a prop, at least pay them accordingly. And this is um, like yeah, be like and this is maybe also like a worn-out term, but be an ally. Like if you want to work with a marginalized community that you're not part of, like be an ally.

Colby 1:26:55

So it's look, it it it's I know there's so many places I could take the conversation from here, but I'm aware that it you um we're we're actually running out of time. It's been but it's when it's always those conversations that you're enjoying that seem the time seems to pass um the quickest. I think the turn that you I think it was you when we had that conversation a a couple of months back who either reminded me of it or put it in my head of of trauma mining. Yeah. And I yeah, I have a re a reluctance, a deep reluctance to um when I when I was one of my early guests I I had on the podcast um had done a podcast for someone else, and I got a link to it, and um so I I this is so before I interviewed.

Tanja 1:28:00

this guest I looked at this other podcast and the pod the the podcaster was went straight into tell us all about your your childhood experiences of blah blah and it was it was brutal i you know like it you could just a person like me who's worked therapeutically for with children and young people for 30 years just you know we know we know the signs when that person is just shutting down and yeah and and this person just kept at it and attach at it so I hope I hope you haven't felt like I've been trauma mining at all today uh it's certainly not been my intention with with any of my um guests who who have experienced significant adversity whilst growing up um but I think you know it I value I value this time that we've

Self Organisation Versus Tokenism

Tanja 1:28:55

had together today to talk about these things and maybe hopefully there'll be an opportunity to speak further um not only with you but other members of the global key at leavers community community GCLC yeah and um because I because that there is no better voice than the voice of the people who lived it that's true well thank you again and uh yeah all the best what what's what's next for you in terms of what over the next six months or a year what are you hoping to um achieve uh in this area of of advocacy well I mean first of all at at the point where we're at now we're trying to prevent the cuts and we're trying to like not fall back um behind all the achievements that we've had in the legislation I think this is um the major point right now and I'm a bit I'm I'm carefully optimistic that um we will prevent a few of those suggested cuts and moves and um like a bit that that we we can keep like Friedrich Merz from like turning back the clock for like a few decades and I think that is it's actually quite exhausting you know you had you you think you had your achievements and now you have to um fight for them again and um this is and I hope that in six months time that uh this um yeah that our our rulers have um failed crushingly with their attempts to defund the youth and like child and youth welfare system. And yeah and I hope that I for me personally I'm working on my PhD and I hope that I'll have written a good chunk of that because I'm I'm writing on carelaving communities and uh I want to like put that out in the world and yeah yeah that's yeah lovely terrific yes

Funding Fights Next Steps And Goodbye

Tanja 1:31:35

well I we're gonna have to pull up stumps we might say which is a cricket term I know you don't take cricket in Germany as we do in other countries but um we will have to draw it to a close there so but thank you thank you Tanja that was great thank you so much for inviting me