The Secure Start® Podcast
In the same way that a secure base is the springboard for the growth of the child, knowledge of past endeavours and lessons learnt are the springboard for growth in current and future endeavours.
If we do not revisit the lessons of the past we are doomed to relearning them over and over again, with the result that we may never really achieve a greater potential.
In keeping with the idea we are encouraged to be the person we wished we knew when we were starting out, it is my vision for the podcast that it is a place where those who work in child protection and out-of-home care can access what is/was already known, spring-boarding them to even greater insights.
The Secure Start® Podcast
#57: The Work You Cannot Leave At The Door, with Marie Clutton
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If you think you can do therapeutic residential care and leave it all at the door, Marie Clutton has a gentle challenge for you. Young people notice what we carry, even when we do our best to hide it, and they can spot the difference between performance and authenticity in seconds. That single truth reshapes how we think about professional distance, boundaries, and what it means to be a safe adult around boys and young men who have experienced trauma and displayed harmful sexual behaviour.
Marie brings over 20 years of experience in therapeutic childcare and therapeutic community practice at Amberleigh Care, an accredited service supporting young males aged 11 to 18. We talk about how a therapeutic community differs from general residential care, including the role of group work, community meetings, and the idea that relationships are the treatment, not something that sits alongside it. You’ll hear why connection and belonging can be protective factors, and how peer support plus peer challenge can open doors that adult-led interventions often cannot.
We also get practical about safeguarding and risk management: individual risk assessments, structured routines, strong communication, and regular reviews. Along the way, we name the emotional reality for staff too and the importance of containment spaces like reflective group supervision and staff dynamics, so the work does not spill destructively into home life.
If you care about trauma-informed care, child protection, youth justice, harmful sexual behaviour interventions, or safer residential care practice, this conversation offers both heart and rigour. Subscribe to Secure Start, share this episode with a colleague, and leave a review to help more people find it. What part of relational safety do you think the sector still underestimates?
Marie's Bio:
Marie brings over 25 years of experience in therapeutic childcare and residential care management. She has been part of Amberleigh Care for two decades and possesses extensive expertise in leading within a therapeutic community (TC). She is a qualified groupwork practitioner, holds a Diploma from the IGA, qualified in care leadership and management, is a designated safeguarding lead, is trained DDP Level 2 and AIM3 Assessment and Intervention, and holds a diploma in Child Care.
Amberleigh Care operates two accredited therapeutic communities for young people, and Marie oversees all therapeutic community processes across the organisation. Her responsibilities include facilitating group dynamics, and collaborating with care, therapy, and education teams. She also works directly with young people in group settings to ensure they feel heard, valued, and engaged within the community.
Marie continues to support young people after they leave Amberleigh Care through peer mentor roles, enabling them to remain connected, share experiences, and contribute to the development of the communities. She is also involved in external events, providing young people with opportunities to share their stories through presentations and workshops.
Marie has served as co-chair of the TCTC Children’s Network for over five years and contributes to research initiatives that support wider professional networks.
Links:
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Podcast Blog Site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.com/
Disclaimer:
Disclaimer: Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Finally, all references to case examples are anonymised to the extent that the actual case could not be identified, or are fictional but based on real-life examples for illustrative purposes, or have client consent to talk about in an educative context.
Why This Work Stays With You
MarieYou come into this type of work and think you're gonna leave your job at the door, you know, and you leave, it's not quite that, you know, it's really not. The young people that we work with, they are more attuned to us than we are with each other. They are so attuned. And if you've had a difficult time at home, you come into work and yeah, I'm alright, I'm alright. They know you're not alright. So the boys, you know, the lads that we work with, they are also expected to engage in a lot of group work as well. Um and the purpose of that is to help them with their relationships, you know. The the key word is relationships, you know, so they're able to learn to kind of function as a group and manage their relationships with each other. And it's far more powerful than a group if they are supporting each other while challenging each other at the same time. The most interesting part, I would say, you know, of you know, being in a therapeutic community. So that space we have for the group, the adults, and we have it for the young people, and I can tell you the young people are better than the adults sometimes. I come from that line and you're thinking, oh my goodness, like they are just amazing young people, like to be able to share that stuff or to be able to help each other out. So, you know, when they come for interview, you know, um they're interviewed by young people as well. And then we'll ask the young people what do they think about you know that person that came in. Did you think they'd be a good fit for us? Would you like them to be coming in and looking at you here? We've had young men, you know, more recently that come from different banks come in, and the risk has changed quite quickly because there's a lot of routine structure of safety around them. So the risks have eliminated, you know, a lot of those things. You know, we work with some the most resilient young men who just wouldn't believe, you know, they're just you know, amazing young men really to have been to do what they've been to do, and they're they're with us and they're functioning, and they're able to smile, they're able to go active, and they're able to start to build them connections. It's a real privilege to be able to work with you know the young men that we do, absolutely part of their lives and they're you know, part of mine as well. You know, not all residential, you know, care is right for every young person. You know, we hear, you know, you know, it's not, but it's also right for a lot of young people. It really is, isn't it? We're not here to do something to young people, they're not going to change by us just coming in and intervening. We've got to be on that journey with them. We've got got to be able to feel a bit of what they're feeling, you know. We need to be on that, on that with them, otherwise, you know, the impact won't be as great. But there's a there's a reason, isn't it, why I'm I'm in this type of work, you know, and I'm still trying to figure that out, you know, sometimes.
Welcome And Acknowledgement Of Country
ColbyHello and welcome to the Secure Star podcast. I'm Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is a guest who regularly challenges established views about boys and young men who commit harmful sexual behaviour. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I come to you from, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Kaurna people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to the elders, past, present, and virtual. My justice to the side of Marie Clutton. Marie brings over 25 years of experience in therapeutic childcare and residential care management. She has been a part of elderly care for two decades and possesses extensive expertise in working within a therapeutic community. Marie oversees all therapeutic community processes across the organisation. I do hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. So, welcome Marie to the Secure Start podcast. I'm really pleased to have you as a guest.
MarieI'm really pleased to be here. Thank you for inviting
Marie’s Path Into Residential Care
Marieme.
ColbySo, I mean, why don't we just start if you just tell us a little bit about yourself and about the organisation that you work for and perhaps even how you came to be working there?
MarieYeah, absolutely. Um, so I'll start at the beginning. So when I left school, um I didn't know what I wanted to kind of pursue with my career. I was very interested in art and design, interested in working with y children. You know, it's you know what I wanted to do anyway. I took the kind of uh creative route, art and design, went down that in college for a couple of years, fine art, you know, um photography, different things. Um, really enjoyed it. After that, I thought, oh gosh, am I really gonna have a career in this? You know, is this something I want to do? I thought, I know, I'll I'll do something with with children, I'll learn about children, I'll go and um something I'm interested in, creative ways of you know, kind of mixing that in. Um, went to college for a further two years to learn about child uh childcare, just general child care. Um, really, really enjoyed that, really, you know, got stuck into that, did really well, you know, with my training, with that. Worked with different ages, the children in nurseries, the older in schools. I thought, oh yeah, this is really, really my thing, you know, working with young people. I could be creative. It was, you know, um, yeah, I really enjoyed it. So when I'd finished um college, I I was thinking, is that right? You know, not right, but yeah, I enjoyed working in a nursery bath. I've got a bit of a flavour of maybe going to travel a little bit. Um, maybe I could work with children in another country. So I went away for two seasons in Spain to work with families and children, um, doing lots of fun things, you know, because I was younger, really, really enjoyed that, made lots of relationships with other people from different cultures, different backgrounds. Um, really loved that, you know, really, really loved it. And then I came home after uh the second season and I met my husband, I was 20 years old. Um, so I met him. I didn't go back then, I didn't go back abroad to work. Uh best decision ever, obviously. Um so we got together at the age of I was 20. Um, and I thought, I still want to carry on working with children, you know, what is it I I want to do? Um, and then someone actually I remembered someone coming into college and I was there talking about um she was working in residential care. She'd done the same college course and she was working for a company at the time that was called Leaps and Bangs, um, quite near to where I live, residential child care. And I thought that sounds quite interesting. I remember her talking about that, so I, you know, contacted them and applied for a position there. Um, I wasn't quite sure what this was about, but I thought it's a bit sounds a bit more challenging than working with children in a nursery or a school. So I got the position there and I went to work in residential childcare. I was like 20 years old. The children were younger, they were aged between like five and twelve. Um, so there's a house of five children, mixed uh children in there between the ages of five and twelve, not not far, but half an hour from where I lived. Um knew some of the people that worked there from college, actually, they got jobs there too. Um, and that was the start of my kind of career with young people. So the young people I worked with, they displayed harmful sexual behaviour as well. Um, they were younger, but um that was my opening to that. So I did loads of training with the organization, really amazing training, you know, with them. But still, you know, uh, and there was points, you know, thinking, is this what when you're younger? I think you think differently to when you're kind of older, and you kind of you go with the flow and you're kind of like, I'm not sure why I'm doing this, but I'm doing it, and it's it's okay, and I made really good relationships. But the the young people were they suffered a lot of trauma, you know, they're much younger as well, and a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma, and we were went through some really difficult points, you know. I was there, I was there for five years actually. Um changed position up into a senior role. There was many points where I was thinking I'll leave, you know, because I wasn't sure if it was a well to do. I didn't always feel that happy, I wasn't sure, you know. Um the young people did display, and I know I'll talk about this as we go along, you know, with the young people I work with now, but the young people that have displayed harmful sexual behaviour, I I or maybe others, I'm guessing, might assume that you see that behaviour a lot clearer than what it is, you know. Are the young people going to be exposing themselves? Are they gonna be in all these things, you know? And I do hear that around me in other, you know, people that aren't in this type of environment or working that, you know, the their views are interesting and what what they talk about, but um it's not that, you know, it is not that. And I quite quickly learned that the children, they are children, you know, they suffered really awful childhoods, you know, they they're kids, you know, and that I began to to love my work a bit more, you know, really up and down, but I began to really connect with it a bit more, you know, um and see them as children, you know, and be doing activities with them as I would be doing with children, you know. It was so you're not seeing them for their behavior, seeing them as kids, you know, and have got so many good memories and working with those children, you know, so many good memories. Um, but we went through some really difficult, really difficult times, you know, with those young people got to be much older now. But they were they were quite violent at point, you know. So we were trick trained how to, you know, keep them safe. But um that for me when I was that age, I think I found that quite tricky and you know it quite difficult because I wasn't sure how to manage myself around that. I wasn't sure there was loads of support in that work, you know, there was lots of spaces to talk about how you felt, you know, there were spaces, but I wasn't sure how to navigate that. And I think those are the points where I was thinking, is this the job for me and should I be doing this? And I did, I think, well, I did, I did struggle at points, you know, and in that job I had there was a young girl, she was only seven at the time, and I was key worker to her, and I a massive learning point for me, you know. I think about it so much now, I was key worker to her for quite a long time, and I did build a really strong relationship with her. I remember like decorating her room, didn't get the decorators in, you know, the maintenance people I wanted to do it, so I remember using my creative sort of skills, painting her room. She was with me, only really young, um, made her room like so lovely in her favourite colours, and just and I wanted to do everything I could for that little girl, you know. Um, and when she left, you know, she moved on to a foster family. I personally really struggled with how I managed myself after that. I really struggled. I didn't I didn't know I didn't know what was happening to me. I didn't know, I really struggled. I remember being off work for a little bit of time there because I it was that loss, you know, that loss. And I loved that little girl, you know. I didn't I didn't quite know how to kind of manage that, you know. Um but she went on to a foster family and it was really successful for her and wonderful, you know, for her. But I personally, you know, I couldn't I I struggled with that and yeah, I didn't perhaps know to ask for the help for that. And I didn't know maybe those spaces I was offered weren't wasn't right for me at that time. I I didn't know it felt really, you know, a new load. It was just it was a real learning experience for me, that was, you know, that connection and the loss. And and so I think back at that a lot now, you know. Um so then I kind of continued working there, and then and then after that I moved on. Uh, so this was after like five years, and I'd actually applied for the job at Amberley Care. There was a position to go in there for deputy care manager. I thought that'll be a step step up. And uh there were young males there between 11 and 18. And I thought, yeah, that would be a challenge because they're older than the young people I've worked with, you know, um high position. Um, is that what I want to do? And then I went for a position actually in a nursery as a like um, it was like a castroom sort of teacher assistant, you know, in this nursery, really new nursery, really lovely place. And I was offered these two jobs, and I was like, oh my goodness, which one, you know, do I do I take, you know, and it and it really wasn't till that morning that I was meant to start the job um in the nursery, and the job, you know, here at Amberley Kett, it wasn't until the morning I decided which one to take. I woke up in that morning, I was like, goodness, you know. Um, and I remember an old boss of mine in that residential car. I remember messaging her, you know, close to the time and saying, Oh look, I I don't know, what do you think I should do? And you know, and she sort of said, you know, well, your skills and your experience is with, you know, I think they're with, you know, the young people that have displayed harmful behaviour, they've suffered trauma, you know, but completely your choice, but I think that's where you're kind of skilled at, you know, and that rung in my head a bit, you know, maybe that's something I should be kind of going towards, you know. So I woke up that morning and I rang the nursery and said, thank you for this lovely opportunity, but um, yeah, I'm not going to take positions, so I feel like you know, so late, you know, and felt really bad about that. But so then I went, that's when I went to start my career at Amberley Care, and here I am over 20 years later, you know. And um I'll obviously go into that with you about my my life, you know, my life at Amberly Care, but you know, I I feel really very fortunate, you know, that I've had the upbringing that I've had, you know, I've I've had a lot of love around me, I've had a really great, you know, childhood, really, you know, I I honestly have, and I feel so grateful and thankful for that. And I think that has helped me, you know, in my career in lots of ways. And that's never to say that people that have not had that umbring upbringing can't do this job well and they can't be amazing in this job. I've absolutely seen that, you know, I've seen young people, you know, go through the care system and they are in amazing you know and better better in lots of ways because they've lived experienced that, you know, just phenomenal. But um I think for me, you know, I feel so grateful for that. And I'm I think that helps me kind of it sort of scaffolds me and you know, it's around me, and I'm able to kind of do do this all right, you know. It hasn't always been easy, but it's not always easy even now, you know. Of course not, you know, you work with different people, you have different relationships, you know, it's it's very tricky, but I think it's kind of give me a very good base to help me learn about myself, you know, and that's that's
Loss, Attachment And Learning To Cope
Mariewhere it's kind of begun. So I started my you know role at Ambulary Care, you know, over 20 years ago. Um I went into it, I'd say a little bit naive again going into you know the this role I was 27, you know, at the time. Um and that year I got married, you know, um I had a child not long after that. I've got three children now, so I've had you know a lot of my life, you know, at Amberley care and a lot of things personally for me have you know um a lot of milestones. Yeah, huge milestones. So I've I uh obviously consider you know my life at Amberley, you know. Um, and who's to say, you know, you never know with future and things, do you? But it really has been a huge part of my life, you know, there. And again, fortunate that I can share that, you know, with others, you know, and my experiences. And like I say, not it's not always wonderful, of course, it's not in this, you know, environments, but that's okay. You can it's important to be able to share that and talk about how you've you know managed that, isn't it? And the difficulties and the positives.
ColbyIt's so tell us tell us a little bit about Ambly Care itself for for those who don't know about it uh as an organization.
MarieSo Ambly Care is an organization. Um we have two communities um now, accredited therapeutic communities that care for young males between the ages of 11 and 18 that have suffered really difficult childhoods and upbringings. Um they have displayed harmful sexual behaviour. That's um one of the reasons you know they're with us and we specialise, you know, to be able to help them with that. But you know, it doesn't come standalone that there's a lot of other difficulties, they come with the needs, you know, that we're able to help them with. Um, so we don't solely focus on that whilst they're with us, very individual, you know. Um, so our I'll tell you a little bit more about each site. So our we've got a site in Wales, in Welshpool, that's mid-Wales. Um, and we can have up to 19 young always, young young men there. But we've currently got 16. Um and then our other site opened some years later. Uh originally it was the Welshpool one in Wales that I went to work in to start off with. And then we have our we've got a community in England, so this is about about 50 minutes an hour away. Um, so that's over the border. Um, that functions exactly the same as a therapeutic community. We can have up to 14 young men there. Um currently we've got 12 uh young men there. Um so we've got a referral process for our our young men that's very robust, you know, very, very robust. Um the um person that manages that used to work in the care team to kind of work their way through so they know both communities really well. The kind of young person, you know, um that would be suitable and matched to our communities. Um, so the ratio of staff is one staff to two young people. Um we've got a range of staff that work across both communities, ages, you know, um men, women, young people, older people, different, you know, backgrounds themselves, very different, you know, which is wonderful that we're able to have you know have that really. It's really important for our young men that they have those different relationships, very different, you know. Um, some have got experience from care, working in care, some haven't, you know, very, very different. And that that's what we want. We want a range of very different, you know, others to work with, you know, and so we can build together different relationships. We've got a very strong uh management team that I've been with the organization years now, you know, a very good core of team, you know, and it's we all know each other really well, so it's not it's not split, you know. We work across both sites, you know, that a lot of the management team do. Um Um the directors, there's three directors, um, finance managing director and um operations director, and they work really closely together and they're really, really supportive, you know, they know us all really well. Um, and as far as I'm concerned, run the organization, you know, amazingly, they do just just brilliant. Um that that's changed over years. It was run differently at the start. There was a family that did run it at the start. Um and we had when I first joined, there was um there was only a couple of young men there at the time as we just just opened there. And of all the young people that lived with us, there's only one young man I've never never known because he he joined. I joined about six months after the organisation opened, and he joined the left during that time. Yeah, uh it is really, isn't it? I never it yeah, it's hard to kind of think about, but every young man that's like joined. I'm I'm very lucky to have known and built relationships with all them young men, you know.
ColbyYeah, yeah, absolutely.
What Amberley Care Actually Does
ColbyThe way you describe your life and your experience at Amberly Care, I had I just had this impression that um it is very much integrated in your life as a whole. So your your life, I guess, with your family and your life at work um is is all nicely integrated together. That's that's the impression that I get.
MarieThat's right. It is, and I think for anyone that comes into this type of work, and I've met people, you know, over the years that have um of course we're all different, you know, all very different that that come in and different experiences, and I think it's been a real advantage for me, I guess, being in this line of work from a young age, I guess in lots of ways. Um but I think if you come into this type of work and think you're gonna leave your job at the door, you know, when you leave, it's not quite that, you know, it's really not. And I think um and maybe some people do do that, you know, and they're able to, and that that's right for them. But I believe, you know, to be you know, more impactful in the community for the adults, you the people you're working with, and the young people you're working with. And I'm not saying you get you go home from work and that's all you think about, of course not. But I think now I've really settled with and accepted the fact that that really is part of my life, and and and I love that because that's part of me, isn't it? It is.
ColbyI think that I think it's an it's often an artificial distinction, your work life and your and your home life, your family life, and um and this and I I remember when I was first training to be a clinical psychologist, there was you know, you were meant to maintain a prof a professional distance uh that that would facilitate um objective objectivity. Um but I my first role as clinical psychologist was in child protection, and it was very clearly apparent to me from very early on that um that uh having the full experience, uh being open to the full experience of the people that I was working with, including the staff, uh the the the parents and particularly the children made me a better practitioner, there's no doubt about that. And I I I do I do recall going for a job interview in another uh place one time and being asked about how I keep that that that professional distance, that objectivity, and I said, Well, I don't because it's my own experience of the relationship, it's my own experience of the work that makes me a more I think sensitive and effective practitioner.
MarieDefinitely, you know, and I'm not you know, of course, you know, we are professional when we need to be, and I'm not saying, you know, um it's not a go don't go home talking about everything that's happened in the it's not it's not about that, but it's what you kind of hold in inside you, isn't it? And what you know, and and that goes both ways, you know, from home to work as well. I don't go into work necessarily, uh you know, I don't I never go in talking about my personal life with young people. I don't purposely go to it and think, right, I'm not talking about anything today. It's not that, you know, it's not that, it's it's who you are, and it's it's so important to be authentic, isn't it, in the work? And I take part of me into that, into there, and then back home, it's like vice versa. And I think sometimes people get um that can feel quite confusing for maybe people that are coming into the work because we're saying you be professional, you know, don't discuss you, don't need to be discussing the ins and outs of your personal life with the young people. However, we want you to be real and authentic and really natural with them. Of course we do, but it's having that balance, isn't it? And knowing, you know, and and that does come with experience, of course it does. You know, it's not something straight away, I think.
ColbyI think it was uh, I'm pretty sure uh she'd she'd um she'd not be happy with me to for being not a hundred percent sure, but I'm 99% sure it was uh Lynn Payton, who uh uh a friend of mine who is in Northern Ireland, she talked about work life balance being um um I can't remember the word she used, uh but it it's not really what what we're we're striving for, it's work-life integration that we're yeah, uh and and I think it's interesting because uh while you were talking and reflecting on what I said, um integration is the is is kind of like the key word here, and uh and in actual fact, integration is is a central pillar of the therapeutic work that we do with children and young people who've experienced um abuse and neglect. And so the this idea that we should have a this w we should main maintain a a degree of non-integration or disintegration between home I think between home and work um seems anomalous with to the the therapeutic task, I guess, um that we uh of integration, of uh of creating wholeness, facilitating wholeness.
MarieAbsolutely, and I think you know, for us, because we're a therapeutic community, there are there are specific spaces for the adults that work with the young people, you know, to help them with that. So, you know, and I'm saying here, you know, it work and home and we mix and of course, but we don't want, you know, we're very careful, we don't want, you know, uh people we work to be going home feeling overwhelmed. That's really natural as well as overwhelmed, and you know, it's it's difficult work, it's so difficult, you know, isn't it? The work and what you're you're full of, you know, when you leave sometimes, and it's not easy. Um, so we don't it's not that we want the staff to be going home carrying that and holding it and it's spilling into their lives and that coming into work, you know, because because if that wasn't contained, that would happen. That absolutely would happen. So, you know, for us, there's specific designated, you know, spaces, safe spaces that we have for our staff to help them with that, you know, and that's what's very different about therapeutic communities. That's what's very, very different, you know, about working, you know, you know, in other residential care settings, you know. Um so we provide spaces such as we call it group supervision. So one of the therapists, and it's normally the clinical leave, I'll facilitate a space with all the staff that work with the young people to talk about the impact of the young people on them. So it's really important that they talk about what's coming up for them and what's that triggering triggering in them, you know. Um, and and that space is so important. Then we then we have another space called staff dynamics, that's something I facilitate. Um, so that space is for the group to explore them as a group, you know, the impact, you know, their relationships with each other. So again, that's uh a specific space. So they've got you know points every week, you know, every month, we've got timetable points where they can explore that. So that helps them contain the work with young people and themselves outside of you know the work environment as well.
ColbyYes, it it I mean it was interesting. You you don't want people to take the work home, but but i as such, um but people I guess there's recognition in what you're saying that people bring to work what they bring to work, they bring home to work and they take work they take work home. And I think unless we acknowledge that, yeah, then we don't
Work Life Integration And Authenticity
Colbywe don't necessarily see a role for for containing spaces as you the the the the thing is that we bring ourselves in this work. That's what's really coming through, and why I was so keen to speak to you, that you you it's so clear that you're um who you are at work is who you are as a person. Yeah, there is no set this there's no separate entities as such, there is one whole, there's one integrated person, and um we sometimes in the work need to contain for staff, we need to contain what's happening in their personal lives as well, you know, at work and um and and obviously the the other way as well.
MarieAnd and that's the reality of it, isn't it? And you know, and that's a huge key part of our role. I feel so strongly about that. Um we're not different people when we go home. And I've heard so many people in my years, you know, of this work, yeah, you know, I drive past that tree on the way home, you know, and I leave everything behind. And I'm like, really? You know, that really do you do that? And you know, maybe that's the idea of that's all right, but do you really do that? You know, because you're some person if you can do that, you know, you can just leave all your feelings behind that tree as you drive past it, you know, and like change who you are when you go home. And or somebody will say, Well, I'm not like this at work, or I'm not like this, you know, at home. And I'm thinking, well, what, you know, and you know what? Above all this, for the young people that we work with, they are more attuned to us than we are with each other. They are so attuned. And if you've had a difficult time at home and you come into work and yeah, I'm all right, I'm all right, they know you're not all right. They're not that, you know, they pick up on how you're feeling before anyone can. So why pretend? And I'm not saying share that stuff with the young people we work with because they've got their own stuff going on, but it's really important that we recognize it and are able to manage it with support with our relationships. Um so we can say to that young person, you know, yeah, you know, I'm tired, I am tired today, you know, I've had a I've had a tricky night, you know, but I'm all right, I'm here for you today, and I'm focusing on you today. You know, that's me, you know, and but it's okay not to pretend, you know, that you know.
ColbyI I think yeah, uh you've got me thinking a g a bit more deeply about this, in that there's layers of sharing, in a sense. Uh in this we of course we don't tell the story of our home life, no, nor nor do we tell the story of our work life at home. Yeah. But it it seems bizarre to me to make a distinction between uh you know who we are at home and who we are at work in the sense that as you rightly point out, our our experience uh we carry that experience of home into the work and and vice versa. And the kids and the kids pick up on it. And at home, I'm sure, uh, you know, uh the kids that we work with are particularly tuned into other people's presentations, but but you know, our families also um tune in and pick up that stuff too. So there's there's unconscious uh communication all the time, and and I think um so we've got talking quite a lot about about the idea of integration and and being a whole person, and and I think that's probably it's an interesting conversation because we use so much of ourselves as a person in the work that we we do, and if we were fake about it, if we were trying to be something else, the kids pick up on it pretty easily.
MarieYou know, I always have this open conversation with our young men all the time, you know. Um hit hit, you know, do you do you think you know if someone's like being real? Um they're spot on every time, you know. I mean, they know who's like being genuine with them and who's not, and they form them connections, you know, with those that are being real, you know, they do every time, you know, every single time they they do. So it's
Containing Spaces For Staff
Marieit's so important, isn't it?
ColbyIt's yeah, you know. Do you you you you started to talk a little bit about some how a therapeutic community is different from um other um residential child care um settings? I wonder if you might just expand upon that a little bit in terms of what what what's your how would you describe a therapeutic community as such?
MarieOkay, so like when I came into this with we went um accredited therapeutic community at Amberley Care, you know, initially it took some years to kind of build that in. Um, but I guess the culture began, you know, kind of, you know, we wanted that culture, you know, and again it was run by um different people at that point, you know. But I've been been through it, you know, been through it with them in the new. So um part of that, which is lovely. But I think you know, we've got them frameworks in our you know, communities, you know, where young people join us, you know, they're in assessment periods, we've got risk assessments, there's policies, procedures, there's there's a lot of things that might be the same in other residential childcare, you know, and I I think there would be, you know, a lot of things, you know, we've got a model of work, a good lives model, which is great, you know, and I know other organisations might use that or different ones, you know. Um, our young people have therapy with therapists, but you know, the real difference, you know, with a therapeutic community is that um we're expected to engage ourselves, we're not coming in to do something to the young people, you know, and it's really difficult to uh explain that, I guess. You know, when someone comes to join you, and then look at you know, people look on a website and think it's not the same until you feel it. Um, so we are members with the Royal College of Psychiatry in London, so it's a membership um and the purpose is that it's a quality improvement program. So we want to improve our service as a therapeutic community. Um, so there's a number of standards that we need to meet um to be members, but we're because we're accredited, we have to meet a certain criteria and a certain percentage, you know, and that that is my the key part of my role to ensure that both of our communities are doing that, you know. Um, so within that, that's about containment and having them spaces for the adults and the young people. So the boys, you know, the lads that we work with, they are also expected to engage in a lot of group work as well. Um and the purpose of that is to help them with their relationships, you know. The the key word is relationships, you know, so they're able to learn to kind of function as a group and manage their relationships with each other. And it's far more powerful in a group if they are supporting each other while challenging each other at the same time rather than the adults in there. So we have meetings, you know, community meetings where there's not many uh staff in there, adults, you know, in that group, and there is a big group, there's like 16 boys in that group, which we hold twice a week, you know. Um, and they will talk about them as a group, you know, um, what difficulties they're coming up with, what they're not happy about another young person might be breaking a rule in the community, or um there's there's lots of things someone's, you know, they don't agree with the media rule, or if someone's struggled with their behaviour and something's happened instead of you know what might happen in other, you know, residential homes is they have a sanction or a consequence for that behavior put on them by the adults, you know. We our young people have a big say in that and they talk about it as a group. What do we think is going to help them not do that bit, you know, not do that again, or what do we think is a function of that behaviour? And then it opens it up for other young men, like, oh yeah, you know, that that's happened to me, you know, in the past, and that's so they they start to explore as a group, you know, themselves, and and it and every meeting is very different, you know. Sometimes it's surface level things, sometimes it's what's going on at that point in time in that group, you know. Other times a young man might mention something, you know, I'm really struggling at the moment because I've had a family visit at the weekend and I've
What Makes A Therapeutic Community
Marienot seen my parent for a couple of years, and I'm really struggling with that feeling, you know. And then then another young man will say, Yeah, I know that that feels actually because that's happened to me too. And and then they'll go deeper, deeper into things, you know. So it really is a space for them to explore, and they help each other in that space, you know, we're there to help them also, but they're there to support each other, to help, we help contain it, you know, so they're not alone, you know, they're not alone, you know, they've got each other, and you know, so that's the most interesting part, I would say, you know, of you know, being in a therapeutic community. So that space we have for the group, the adults, and we have it for the young people, and I can tell you the young people are better than the adults, you know, in that space. Maybe less guarded. Yeah, that you know, it's it's it's amazing, you know, a group of lads between the ages of like 12 and 18 talking together and supporting each other. Sometimes you come. I come from there, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, like they are just amazing young people, like to be able to share that stuff or to be able to help each other and think a bit more, and they we want them to feel a bit of empathy, we want them to feel each other a bit, you know, and that that's what it's about.
ColbyThis look, there's so many thoughts going through my mind. I a well worn quote from Richard Rawlinson of of the Mulberry Bush, um, an elder of the Mulberry Bush is that at the at the Mulberry Bush, the young the children come and they learn to live with themselves and with each other.
MarieYeah.
ColbyUh there's there's elements of of the the power of the group, and you I asked you about uh um what a therapeutic community is, but it what the way you describe it, particularly with the boys, puts me in mind of a village and put and remo and and the reminder that we that um and Patrick Tomlinson, uh well-known person in this space, um uh reminds me that the the initial conception of the uh conceptualization of the idea of it takes a village to to raise a child was inclusive of the other young people in the village. Yeah, the that that the young people that um helped right they helped to raise each other. And uh another thought I had about it was was just that um yes, Amberley Care specializes in um accepting uh young men who have engaged in harmful sexual behaviours, but it's so much broader. It's uh the the service that that you're um providing. Um and in fact I I can just imagine how the the the feeling of connection in those groups between those boys and and I had Alan Jenkins a local um uh psychologist here from Australia who has a lot of um expertise in in the area of harmful sexual behaviours and and he and and uh others who work in this space will say connection is often is the is the main um factor in the harmful sexual behaviour yeah so so strengthening connections and strengthening capacity to live with others and make and maintain is part of the therapy if you like like i would imagine 100% definitely you know and they say a pure a pure therapeutic community um really you know they wouldn't that need for one-to-one therapy you could function a pure TC without that one-to-one therapy because we're all you know and in it in the TC world we're all each other's therapists that's what we say you know that that's what it is we're all there to help and heal and support each other you know that's what does it that's what that's what like that's what heals you know our our young men absolutely it's the the connection the relationships you know of course we've got all these other things going on you know there's a lot of work going on around these young people masses of work you know you know reports there's aim assessments the you know there's an intervention you know there's a lot of work going on but for me and my experience if we haven't got you know what I'm talking about now is there's no real you know work going on you know really it's it's it's the key you know to the to the work with the young men 100% I just couldn't say anymore you know it is it put it puts me in mind too of you know outsiders looking in and how you know if you if you've if you're meant to be focusing on something then you should then there's often that belief that that's all you should be doing and the rest of it is just like wasted opportunity to address the problem and um I can imagine you know some some might see it in that sense that that this is a a specialist um program for for young men who engage in harmful sexual behaviors but um I'm so pleased to hear that you know that there's so i i it's it's a much more broader therapeutic um uh space than that it a program and process than that yeah you know when we have um our recruitment process you know we've had to work really hard on explaining you know what a therapeutic community is you know they're not coming to work in an average childcare service that you know and there's I'm sure there's plenty of excellent childcare services out there there is however you know this is far more specialized far more specific and far more intense you know um and and good outcomes you know for our young people as well and and good outcomes for the you know adults that are with us you know learning about life and their you know their career and there's a lot around it as well it's not just about the young people so you know when they come for interview you know um they're interviewed by young people as well um so they get to ask them a set of questions that they want to ask them you know they have an interview with someone from each department then they're invited back for a community lunch you know to see if it's the right fit for them you know as well you know so we can look at how they're kind of you know managing in in their interactions really important and then we'll ask the young people what did they think about you know that person that came in did you think they'd be a good fit for us would you like them to be coming in and looking after you here you know and that's the same you know we work closely with the education team care therapy and education work really closely together um so that's the same for teachers that come in and therapists it's the same process for us all you know um so then when we come in you know we spend you know the induction process we spend a lot of time talking
Recruitment Led By Young People
Colbyabout the expectation you know and even in interview we talk about this you know the expectation for them to engage as a person you're not I'm always really open in interviews you're not coming here to kind of um put an intervention in with that young person without feeling something or you know learning about yourself because that won't happen at Ambly Care.
MarieYou know you'll come in you know and people oh yeah yeah you know and they'll come in and we don't have a high turner of staff but we have had people that have come in and that oh you know it will touch it'll open up something for them and they don't like it so they've continued you know it's not often but that has happened you know and then and that's okay isn't it but we do our best to prepare them for that before they can't come in some people are really interested in that that's what they what keeps them with us and that's what they want to do you know you know we have you know people that come to us and it's not what they expected and perhaps it's triggering something in them that they didn't know was there you know or it's all really different.
ColbyOr some people might come into the work thinking they're going to rescue the the boys and they're gonna make them better people overnight and you know it's all good because you know really different but it's our well it's my job along with you know some others to kind of help you know people with that really and to manage it you know to really it's not a passive role is it it's not it's not a job where you just go and you do you you tick it tick the boxes and this is you do these things during the day without without much thought with in it just in a very routine way. I think the the impression that I'm getting is that um there there are there are I know that there are expectations of the staff just as there are expectations of the boys and of management and uh in a therapeutic community. The word that comes to me I think or the concept that comes to me this particularly relates back to what you've said about your your time at Emberly care but also um you know that staff staying is what one of growth you know that the a therapeutic community like M Amberly care facilitates growth not just for the young people but also for the adults who are there as well.
MarieYeah that I mean that that's another key part of a therapeutic community absolutely as much work is around the adults that work with them as that goes into the young people there's the same amount of work you know at times you know it can feel like more or less you know but it's really really essential in this type of work that that that that's there because you know we've talked about risk and things before but that we'll I'm sure we'll get to that but there's um if we don't help you know the growth and the containment with the adults that are working with young people it's not going to be as you know influential impactful with the young people you know it's you know they're not gonna you know manage themselves as well as we want them to it's it's really important and and I guess that's what's really different about therapeutic community you know and there's a lot of training we there's a lot of training that we provide you know as other residential organisations do you know great but we also put a lot of training on around therapeutic communities and and what we're doing and why we're doing it and the purpose of it and how we feeling about that.
ColbySo there's a lot of work around this you know to help us engage in that process you know ourselves you know it's yeah it's a different it's a totally different concept isn't it really you come to work not just to help facilitate the growth of the boys but you come to grow yourself and through training through reflective supervision groups um I do I do wonder a little bit well a couple of things it it does perhaps reflect why um we shouldn't think that all residential childcare is the same that it's it's a homogeneous uh entity just as families are not uh homogeneous uh and uh there are there there is quite a diversity in uh residential care uh residential childcare service provision I do wonder because what what I know what I'm hearing you say and what I've know for example from speaking to uh uh to people associated with other therapeutic communities and particularly the Cotswold community for example no longer uh around but a lot of people have gone on to really interesting um careers post the Cotswold community they and and cite the co the Cotswold community as being really instrumental in in in that their career growth and then their growth as a person but I do I do I what's going through my mind is in more generic residential childcare how how how easy or difficult do you think it is to um to have the same or similar kind of expectations of the staff around that that that you have uh in a in a therapeutic community as such?
MarieWe do have high expectations of our staff that we work in and that and that's good too isn't it you know but the realistic you know the realistic and have lots of lots of support you know you know around that more so than probably a lot of other residential care you know and and people that have come into this type of work first they have not you know some that have not been in residential child care don't know any different do they and the kind of the more support they get in the kind of like one more remote but in other you know places they probably wouldn't get the amount you know that they are actually you know there's a huge amount of support in our communities there really is and the expectation is to engage in that absolutely you know and and everyone is is different you know they'll engage at different levels and and people's strengths are so different aren't they you know we've got you know staff that work with us that are really skilled at unorganised and great at organising activities for the young people or you know keeping the staff organised you know they're great at that you know and then there's others that are not so great at that but they're really you know really lovely with the young people you know our staff are but they're really um engaging with the young people on a different level you know they're very interested in that and they're able to you know they're able to do it so we do you know we don't expect I guess exactly the same from everyone because they're all they're all different you know and and like I said skilled in different ways aren't they and their strengths are different very different personalities we try and use them for what they're best at kind of growing them in that way.
ColbyYeah I think one of one of the things that seems to me that differentiates uh different types of residential childcare provision including the difference between general provision and and a therapeutic community is that um you it's not you you're not just coming to do a job where the focus is just the children. There is also that focus on yourself and it also sounds to me like um a you you probably attract or at least you retain people that see it see the work as a real vocation so not just a job this is this is a a vocation of of their life. You did mention a couple of other things that we I wanted to
Safeguarding, Risk And Gender Dynamics
Colbytalk to you about. I I'm aware of um from just even from from my own from my own circle that there are risks and and safeguards that need to be in place when we work with all young people.
MarieWith ambly care how do what sort of risks and and safeguards are um are there are put in place to safeguard the children the staff and and I guess the organisation as well so safeguarding is the heart of everything we do um obviously we've got clear policies procedures robust routines structured timetables you know adequate staffing levels um the there's you know all those things that we need to have and our young people have got individual risk assessments that are very specific from the day they arrive with us you know that are very individual and specific for them it's not blanket you know rule for when young people come in and the same risk you know management for you know for them all it's it's very very different you know we work very individually with our young people um which again is really important isn't it and they've got you know a therapist they've got a key worker we're all very aware of you know the risks for that young people and we do that through you know meetings together um lots of communication communication's the key as well you know communicating things because we've got a lot of young lads that live with us you know and we don't want to be getting it wrong you know you know forgetting what young person could do and what young person can't you know it's very different and there's you know we have a range of young men we've got some young men that live with us that have um you know mild if you like harmful sexual behaviour you know very different to some that have come in and might have offences you know so very specific intervention and risk you know that is not dictated by us sometimes you know um that we've got to follow you know for them young men by you know youth workers police you know that's very different you know very very different but of course we work with that and you know do our do our best for young people but it's really important that we all you know are aware of each young person you know and they're involved in that we always involve our young men in you know they know what we're working with with the risk you know it's not done you know secretly around them you know um we do well we do we do something called a board review every three months for that young person so we set targets we look at the risk you know um specifically and they have every six months they have an aim assessment so that specifically looks at you know harmful sexual behavior and the risks around that so we look at where that is you know whether we can reduce you know some of the risks and how we're going to do that um and how that's gonna look as a multidisciplinary team how we're gonna manage that how we're gonna because there's no point in young people coming to us and us never helping them manage themselves when they leave you know they might live with us for a couple of years um we want them to leave and be safe out in the community and be able to keep themselves safe they can function better they can manage themselves they can be happy you know um and that's what our aim is we want to try and reduce their risk you know and some young men's risk reduces greatly some just a bit you know and they need more support you know when they're 18 when they leave us very very different but there's you know it's really important that the risk and safeguarding is you know a massive key you know with that young people you know um and for the adults that are coming to work with the young people you know so that they're aware of it and they can you know we know what's you know suitable for that young man really.
ColbyWould you say there's gender considerations I guess in terms of like in relation to the work is there potential increased risk for female staff or you know or male males needing to be um predom the predominant carer group or worker group in the organisation?
MarieThere have been points with our young men over the years you know from my experience at Medicare there's you know when we do an impact risk assessment so it's before that young person joined you so we're looking at what you know what is the initial risk them coming in you know what is that risk you know if the risk was sky high of them not you know not you know they couldn't be around females it wouldn't be the right environment for them because that's you know we're you know very mixed you know team you know community and we want to help those young men be able to work you know to have relationships with different ages different genders and cause that's what our aim is you know so we might look at there might be a slightly higher risk of them working with a male or a female but we manage that you know when they come in and we look at you know it might be that you know uh male or female perhaps you know at the start when they came in perhaps couldn't be on their own with them so we'd have two adults and some more children so it it wasn't obvious you know so we kind of manage it you know discreetly and observe for a while you know how they are and how they're interacting and how they're you know because they they sometimes it's environmental they can come from an environment where the risk is very different. You know we're always looking at referrals of young men and you know we've had young men you know more recently that have come from different environments come in and the risk has changed quite quickly because there's a lot of routine structure and safety around them.
ColbySo the risks have eliminated you know with a lot of those things you know so it's it's dependent you know so we've got to be and we we we look at that regularly you know very regular some for some lads it's every day some day lads it's every week you know we might look at how that looks and how we can manoeuvre that really yeah because we want them to be able to have their relationships but yes we have had a point you know over the years you know we we had a young man that kind of went towards the young females actually and was um there were some behaviours that were could have been quite frightening for some of the young females at that point you know when he was doing things that were you trying to gain some you know response from them you know uh and that happened at points you know um but I again that was our support in the the um you know young ones in manage that there's a lot of support around that and and that young man always still keep in touch with that young man is brilliant you know absolutely amazing young man but at the time you know there was a need for that you know and I would say um while while you've been talking I've been reflecting on some uh situations from my own professional experience uh working in this space and um in in particular well a couple of things one if we start with the the um what I think is is a is a truism of this work is that connection is is and a relational connection is a is a is a really strong safeguard here in relation to um harmful sexual behaviours and um my my observation would be
Connection, Love And Real Change
Colbythat um there would there may be a residential care home there's a number of of young people in it um the young people there may be some um sexualised behaviour that occurs between the young people the young people then get separated and removed from that care home maybe maybe maybe not all of them but they they get they get moved out farmed out away from each other and it it's quite int interesting if you think about it because I would from the way we've been talking about it, because you could say Well the problem is in the children and people do. But you could also say the problem is in the lack of connection, the lack of real significant relational connection they feel with the adults in that in that environment. And and that's perhaps where there should be intervention rather than moving the kids out and moving them to other places and weakening their connections, as often happens in my experience, it would be better to look at well, what what are the adults not being not able to give them?
MarieYeah. We have experienced the that type of example of quite a few times, you know, where there's you know, our lads, you know, that that's happened with us, you know. But as you say, you know, it's not about shipping them out, is it? It's about looking at you know the function of that, isn't it, and how we're gonna manage that together, you know, and that has happened with us, and then you know, we haven't shipped them out, we've separated them slightly for a while to manage the risk, you know, looked at that, you know, explored that, and then things have you know moved slightly and the risk has reduced, and you know, that has happened, and that's the reality of this work, isn't it? And as you say, it's about looking at why that is, and you know, we we have absolutely encountered that a number of occasions, you know, definitely, you know, and and this you know, it's probably like any work, isn't there? That there's risk, isn't there? Like anything, and you know, we've worked with some really high-end, you know, young men that have displayed, you know, um we we really have. Um, you know, and I know I talk a lot about, yeah, of course I talk about connection and loving the boys, of course, and and that's my main, you know, priority. However, you know, there's risks associated, isn't there? We have to, it's really important that we we look at that, don't we we absolutely manage that, you know? And you know, I've worked with people over the years, you know, I've saying, you know, that when one of our trainings that we do, we're like, can can do you think we can should we or can't we? Can we love these young people that we're working with? And you know, I've come across people that have said, Well, no, because I know what they've done, you know, I know that what they've done and that's their honest opinion, and they've felt that way, you know, and that and that's the you know, feelings, isn't it? But it's about just thinking about thinking past that, isn't it? And that you know, that's you know, product of you know what they've been through, isn't it? And what you know it absolutely is, it's you know, and of course there's some behaviours and instance and things they've been through that absolutely is not okay. Of course that, but it's our role to you know help them not repeat that, isn't it, in the future, and to give them, you know, some some love back, you know, it really is, and to you know, have them experience that goodness whilst they're with us so they can have a better future, definitely.
ColbyI I've often I've written it and I often say that relationships are the most powerful regulating influence that we can have over the children, uh over you know, over anyone's behaviour, the relationship that you have. And I think you've you've mentioned a uh in there uh one of the reasons why I was really keen to have you um come on the podcast and talk. And you you've talked about love and loving the children. And I wonder just you know, some uh before we we finish up, I I wonder what you would like the world to know about these boys, the boys that you have there at Amberley.
MarieI I you know for me it is about, you know, like I was saying earlier on, it's you know, important. Well, the relationships is the key. I think it's about being real with the young people, you know. You know, the relationships is the centre of everything we do, you know. Um that you know, our community is unique, you know, it's meaningful, you know, and you know, we believe that everything happens through connection. You know, that it that is the key, you know. Um I th I you know we work with some the most resilient young men you just wouldn't believe, you know, it's they're just you know, amazing young men really to have been through what they've been through and they're they're with us and they're functioning and they're able to smile and they're able to go on activities and they're able to start to build them connections, you know, either quickly or slowly you know that's right for them, isn't it? But um you know, it's a real privilege to be able to work with you know the young men that we do, absolutely, you know, to be part of their lives and they're you know, part of mine as well, absolutely. I think you know, not all residential you know, care is right for every young person. You know, we hear, you know, you know, it's not but it's also right for a lot of young people. It really is, isn't it? You know, and it's about them, but it's you know I think as well, you know. I would want people to think about that it's important that we are important in and engaging in that, and we're not here to do something to young people. They're not going to change by us just coming in and intervening. We've got to be on that journey with them, and we've got got to be able to feel a bit of what they're feeling, you know. We need to be on that, on that with them, otherwise, you know, the impact won't be as great. And I think, you know, I feel like I've grown as a person, you know, I've got a lot more growing today, of course. You know, and my one of my bosses said to me, it's by no accident you come into this type of work, and I'm always you know, always, even now, what what what's the reason I'm in this type of work? And I know I can say, Oh, I've had the lovely upbringing, and you know, you know, and that's fortunate, but there's a there's a reason, isn't there, why I'm I'm in this type of work, you know, and I'm still trying to figure that out, you know, sometimes. I think I am too yeah, yeah, yeah.
ColbyWe could we could I feel like I could keep on talking to you uh for for uh a while longer. Um I think what you said something really, really, really, really important that I wanted to just highlight there, and and that is um that we we need to be in this work we need to be open to feeling a bit of what they're feeling. And that means we can't uh have revulsion towards uh these young people. We have to have uh uh be able to commit to that with um care and acceptance and as you say, um love.
MarieYeah, and um, you know, if you come in into spirit thinking you're not gonna feel any pain. You you're you're wrong because you do, you know, you do feel pain, you know, you feel their pain, you know, and it's it's a hard feeling. But you know, unless you can try and be open to that, you know I just yeah, it's we need to be on it with them, not not for them or at them, you know, with with them, you know. That's that's
Final Reflections And Closing Thanks
Mariewhat I would say.
ColbyWell, that's a fantastic spot to finish, Marie. Thank you very much for uh coming on and having this conversation.
MarieThank you so much.
